Not My Day

[Melissa]

On my way back from Washington yesterday I heard a noise in my Dodge, and found that the surp belt tensioner was rattling around and trying to fall off. I checked on the price for one and found that it will cost me $133 for the part I need. I thought oh well I'll drive my Jeep and get to my Dodge next month when I have more funds.

I ran into town today with my jeep and when I was pulling into my driveway I saw smoke blowing out from the under side. That had me screaming the rest of the way up the driveway, jumping out and grabbing my fire extinguisher, I though for sure that my Jeep was on fire. Well it wasn't but when I opened up the hood, to my horror the entire engine compartment is now covered in oil. WTF?!?!?!?!?

I don't know what to do, a month back I had oil spraying out from around my dip stick, but once I took out my K&N air filter and put back in a throw away filter, it stopped.

Anyone have any ideas as where to start and what I need to do to try and figure out what the **** is going on here. I have to leave for Portland (4 hours away from me) on tuesday and as of right now, I don't have anything to drive.

I think Karma is kicking my *** for buying a boat!!

[Melissa]

I just got out from the underside of my jeep and the whole underside is also covered in oil.

[Mudderoy]

Well I'll give you an answer since you are waiting, but I could be wrong. Sounds like a blown head gasket to me. Can you tell where the oil is coming out at?

[Melissa]

I was just looking for that, but I can't see anything.


I cleaned up the oil in the engine compartment and then I fired it back up and nothing, it's running great and I see no oil leaking or spraying from anywhere

I just changed my own oil, so I double checked that the pan plug and filter were tight and they are, no leaks.

[Mudderoy]

Maybe it's not a head gasket, maybe it's a crack. The crack would get larger as the engine heated up. If it got big enough it would move the exhaust into the crankcase and blow the oil out the least path of resistance. Hmmm I wonder if it is a broken ring.

I would spend the $133 on the idler pully, or not go. You Jeep is going to strand you.

[Melissa]

Maybe it's not a head gasket, maybe it's a crack. The crack would get larger as the engine heated up. If it got big enough it would move the exhaust into the crankcase and blow the oil out the least path of resistance. Hmmm I wonder if it is a broken ring.

I would spend the $133 on the idler pully, or not go. You Jeep is going to strand you.

Yes, I'm gonna have to, but the problem there is that it's not a regular stocked part so he is going to have to order it Monday and I then have to pray that it gets here and put on before I have to leave, and I do have to be in Portland no later than thursday at 10 am. :smiley-scared002:

[Mudderoy]

Yes, I'm gonna have to, but the problem there is that it's not a regular stocked part so he is going to have to order it Monday and I then have to pray that it gets here and put on before I have to leave, and I do have to be in Portland no later than thursday at 10 am. :smiley-scared002:

It should be a pretty simple job, maybe an hour. I'm sorry you're having problems. If it helps at all I'll give you $133 for that boat, ahh shipping included. :smiley-scared002:

[Melissa]

It should be a pretty simple job, maybe an hour. I'm sorry you're having problems. If it helps at all I'll give you $133 for that boat, ahh shipping included. :smiley-scared002:


It's not putting it on, but actually getting the part to Heppner that has me worried :eek:

And of course now I can't just take the Jeep and run the hour to Hermiston where I might be able to find the part I need right now, sometimes it just does not pay living in the country :rotfl2:

Uhhh............................... thanks for the offer, but I can't sell the boat until I at least get to put it in the water.

[Mudderoy]

It's not putting it on, but actually getting the part to Heppner that has me worried :eek:

And of course now I can't just take the Jeep and run the hour to Hermiston where I might be able to find the part I need right now, sometimes it just does not pay living in the country :rotfl2:

Uhhh............................... thanks for the offer, but I can't sell the boat until I at least get to put it in the water.

Ok but the offered price goes down if you get it wet.

No neighbors you can beg a ride from?

[Melissa]

Ok but the offered price goes down if you get it wet.

No neighbors you can beg a ride from?

Had not thought about that, My horse shoer is headed this way from Hermiston sunday to work on my horses feet. I'll give him a call and have him pick it up and bring it to me when he comes, I take back what I said, it does pay to live in the country, cause he won't even think twice about bringing it to me :thumbsup: Thanks for the suggestion Muddy!!!

I would think that the offered price should go up if I get the boat wet, how else you going to know that it won't sink before it gets to you?? :thumbsup:

[BlueXJ]

Before sending the boat to Muddy drill a few holes in the bottom so that water from rain can drain out since he wants it dry.

[Mudderoy]

Mel I had to take the Mustang to my mechanic today. I asked him about the blow by. He says the jeeps are real back about blow by the rings. Sounds like it's time for a rebuid. You should be able to do a compression test and find the failing cylinder if it is a ring issue.

[Melissa]

Mel I had to take the Mustang to my mechanic today. I asked him about the blow by. He says the jeeps are real back about blow by the rings. Sounds like it's time for a rebuid. You should be able to do a compression test and find the failing cylinder if it is a ring issue.

crap, what am I getting into if it's a ring issue?

Am I going to cry at the cost?

[xjjeepthing]

Really sounds like an internal engine issue. Time for a new motor or Jeep.

[whowey]

WTH guys?????

Trying to scare the crap outta her????


Chances of it being a head gasket are about zero... With a blown head gasket you will have coolant spraying everywhere not oil.

Also don't look under your motor. The underside is being coated by oil coming down from the top.

Now calling it blow-by is much closer but still isn't quite going to explain why it is doing it on and off and not continusly.

Do you have oil in your air filter. 99 times out of 100 blow-by on Renix Cherokees present themselves with a big oily glob in your air filter. The tube from the front CCV connection will pump some oil into your air cleaner.

Pull your oil fill cap and take a big smell. Do you have an exhaust smell coming from it???

When was the last time you cleaned your CCV ports??? Have you cleaned your valve cover?? there are two risers in it that will clog and cause the oil spewing from the dip stick.

What happens is that crankcase vapors can't escape out the CCV system and into your air cleaner like the system was designed. So pressure will build inside the crankcase and it will pop the dipstick out and spew the fumes and oil out of it.

[Mudderoy]

Yes we were. :smiley-taunt013:

Actually it's the collection of problems that she has had. The last time this happened the air filter was saturated with oil. If you can help her figure out it isn't blow by GREAT. I hope it isn't.

[Melissa]

Your Jeep is going to strand you.

:mad0090: Nice prediction, it did, but I'll get to that in a few :mad0090:


WTH guys?????

Trying to scare the crap outta her????


Chances of it being a head gasket are about zero... With a blown head gasket you will have coolant spraying everywhere not oil.

Also don't look under your motor. The underside is being coated by oil coming down from the top.

Now calling it blow-by is much closer but still isn't quite going to explain why it is doing it on and off and not continusly.

Do you have oil in your air filter. 99 times out of 100 blow-by on Renix Cherokees present themselves with a big oily glob in your air filter. The tube from the front CCV connection will pump some oil into your air cleaner.

Pull your oil fill cap and take a big smell. Do you have an exhaust smell coming from it???

When was the last time you cleaned your CCV ports??? Have you cleaned your valve cover?? there are two risers in it that will clog and cause the oil spewing from the dip stick.

What happens is that crankcase vapors can't escape out the CCV system and into your air cleaner like the system was designed. So pressure will build inside the crankcase and it will pop the dipstick out and spew the fumes and oil out of it.

I did check the air filter yesterday and zero oil in there, the air filter is dry and still very white.

I just had the head done in march, but the entire motor was a donor motor that was put in and had 98,000 miles on it. I did see today when I drove it that it is oil blow by from around the dip stick again. Why would it stop for more than a month then start again :confused:

I don't know if the valve cover was cleaned when the head was done or not, but I highly doubt it. I am planning on looking into the ccv system, but now even that is after I figure out my new problem that left me stranded today and had to be towed home.


Yes we were. :smiley-taunt013:

Actually it's the collection of problems that she has had. The last time this happened the air filter was saturated with oil. If you can help her figure out it isn't blow by GREAT. I hope it isn't.

Poor Jeep is sitting more than it's running :( I keep thinking back to what you said in another thread Muddy, you said something like why now are you fighting to keep it running cooler when before it ran good. Same with mine, before I blew up the old motor, It never over heated and now I am fighting just to keep my temp at 210.

Anyways here is my new issue. After I ran to town today to order the part for my dodge, I decided to run up to the lake and see who was all fishing. I turned the jeep off and sat there for all of about 2 min. Went to start the Jeep and nothing. I have a brand new battery and I know it's good, but I have no power from there. When I turn my key usually I can hear the fuel pump prime, and all my gauges start working. Now absolutly nothing, no power to anything, gauges, windows, radio, fuel pump, interoir lights, just nothing. WTF NOW!!!! Help!!!! any ideas????

I had to have a ride back to town, get the dodge and pray that my tensioner on the dodge would hold out until my Jeep was home again. It did and now my Jeep is home, but I have a new issue to work on, I swear it's karma from buying that boat :smiley-scared002:

[Melissa]

Really sounds like an internal engine issue. Time for a new motor or Jeep.

I really am thinking about just putting it on CL, getting as much as I can from it and then looking for a newer Jeep. I really don't want as I love my jeep, but I can't keep pouring money into it like I am, just to keep it on the road :boohoo:

I think I'm going to go cry now :(

[xjjeepthing]

Itll be ok. really it will.

[whowey]

Why is it only doing it once in a while?? Not sure.. maybe the dipstick only comes part way off and allows the vapors to escape while the oil is trapped...

What was the same as the last time it did it?? what was different??? Ambient temps, relative humidity, distance of driving, types of driving can all be relevant with this.... With you not always getting copious amounts of oil in air filter, rings are not as likely to be the issue right now.

New problem... more than likely its a grounding issue. To go from power to absolutely none just like that is usually a ground(unless the battery is cooked). It could possibly be a bad battery cable also.

Test the battery posts(not the clamps) with a voltmeter. Now test the voltage on the clamps. The two voltages should be VERY close.

[Melissa]

Why is it only doing it once in a while?? Not sure.. maybe the dipstick only comes part way off and allows the vapors to escape while the oil is trapped...

What was the same as the last time it did it?? what was different??? Ambient temps, relative humidity, distance of driving, types of driving can all be relevant with this.... With you not always getting copious amounts of oil in air filter, rings are not as likely to be the issue right now.

New problem... more than likely its a grounding issue. To go from power to absolutely none just like that is usually a ground(unless the battery is cooked). It could possibly be a bad battery cable also.

Test the battery posts(not the clamps) with a voltmeter. Now test the voltage on the clamps. The two voltages should be VERY close.

The outside temps and the humidity have been the same as the last time I had the blow by, the only difference this time, was how much oil got past the dip stick, and distance of driving. Before there was oil but not enough to make it smoke like it did this time. I only ran it about 6 miles this time, while before I was driving 45+ miles at a time.

I will test the voltage tomorrow.

[muddeprived]

You know maybe this trip just wasn't meant to be. Maybe fate is telling you to stay home cuz something bad's gonna happen? ever think that way?

a LONG time ago when i was a kid we had this trip to florida planned out during the summer. My dad's f-150 pooped out at the last minute so we decided to take the car and whatdoyaknow, it wouldn't run right. It was stumbling and all that crap. We canceled the trip. Next day, when we should have be on the road, my dad went to buy lottery tickets. He won $6000. :eek:


Things happen for a reason and i started believing that then.

As for your issues...i hope you get it sorted out.

[Mudderoy]

You know maybe this trip just wasn't meant to be. Maybe fate is telling you to stay home cuz something bad's gonna happen? ever think that way?

a LONG time ago when i was a kid we had this trip to florida planned out during the summer. My dad's f-150 pooped out at the last minute so we decided to take the car and whatdoyaknow, it wouldn't run right. It was stumbling and all that crap. We canceled the trip. Next day, when we should have be on the road, my dad went to buy lottery tickets. He won $6000. :eek:


Things happen for a reason and i started believing that then.

As for your issues...i hope you get it sorted out.

I think this is a court type of thing.

[whowey]

The outside temps and the humidity have been the same as the last time I had the blow by, the only difference this time, was how much oil got past the dip stick, and distance of driving. Before there was oil but not enough to make it smoke like it did this time. I only ran it about 6 miles this time, while before I was driving 45+ miles at a time.

I will test the voltage tomorrow.

As little as a couple drops of oil from the right spot will make it smoke...

Also check around the CCV connections on the valve cover. You might be getting some oil around one of them.. The air coming in from outside the engine compartment will really sling any oil up there around.

I once had a 4.0l that had blow-by so bad it would push oil out around the oil fill cap. I put another 30k on it and just made sure that I kept the oil filled.

[Melissa]

You know maybe this trip just wasn't meant to be. Maybe fate is telling you to stay home cuz something bad's gonna happen? ever think that way?

a LONG time ago when i was a kid we had this trip to florida planned out during the summer. My dad's f-150 pooped out at the last minute so we decided to take the car and whatdoyaknow, it wouldn't run right. It was stumbling and all that crap. We canceled the trip. Next day, when we should have be on the road, my dad went to buy lottery tickets. He won $6000. :eek:


Things happen for a reason and i started believing that then.

As for your issues...i hope you get it sorted out.


I think this is a court type of thing.

It is a court hearing that I have to be at, It's already been put back twice.

Maybe the defendants have put a curse on me, cause it's a pretty sure thing that I'll win, and that means they have to fork over the money owed :thumbsup:




As little as a couple drops of oil from the right spot will make it smoke...

Also check around the CCV connections on the valve cover. You might be getting some oil around one of them.. The air coming in from outside the engine compartment will really sling any oil up there around.

I once had a 4.0l that had blow-by so bad it would push oil out around the oil fill cap. I put another 30k on it and just made sure that I kept the oil filled.

I am headed out in a few to check on the things you suggested, thanks whowey

[Xtreme XJ]

Are we sure it's oil ? Not P/S or ATF ??
Just thrown something else out there...

Curt

[Melissa]

As little as a couple drops of oil from the right spot will make it smoke...

Also check around the CCV connections on the valve cover. You might be getting some oil around one of them.. The air coming in from outside the engine compartment will really sling any oil up there around.

I once had a 4.0l that had blow-by so bad it would push oil out around the oil fill cap. I put another 30k on it and just made sure that I kept the oil filled.


Are we sure it's oil ? Not P/S or ATF ??
Just thrown something else out there...

Curt

It is for sure oil, I'd rather it be anything but oil at this point!

Okay here is what I did, I unhooked the battery tested the voltage and it read 12.3, then I tested the clamps and they read 12.1. I rehooked up the battery, set it on the charger just cause, it said full after less than 5 min and what do you know, fired right up :confused: I checked the gauge and it was reading right at 14, so I turned on the AC full blast along with the lights, the gauge dropped to right below 14, but went right back as soon as I turned the lights and AC off. I am really confused :headbag:

I looked at my ccv port an the back of my valve cover and no oil leaking from around there.

I took the oil fill cap off and took the big wiff like I was supposed to and I smelled nothing but exhaust, couldn't smell the oil.

Now I believe that your going to tell me it's a head gasket/head, but when you do, please sugar coat it for me since the head and gasket were done back in March :thumbsup:

I have heard that when your oil gets old and needs to be changed that it will start to smell like exhaust, is this true??

Not that it matters in my case as I just changed my oil less than a month ago.

[Xtreme XJ]

Now I believe that your going to tell me it's a head gasket/head, but when you do, please sugar coat it for me since the head and gasket were done back in March :thumbsup:


How does the rad. coolant look ? When checking the oil was it frothy ? Milky ?

The exhaust smell... it's that indicative of blow by ?? I truely don't know and I'm as curious as the next guy...

Best of Luck Mel...

Curt

[Melissa]

Now I believe that your going to tell me it's a head gasket/head, but when you do, please sugar coat it for me since the head and gasket were done back in March :thumbsup:


How does the rad. coolant look ? When checking the oil was it frothy ? Milky ?

The exhaust smell... it's that indicative of blow by ?? I truely don't know and I'm as curious as the next guy...

Best of Luck Mel...

Curt

My coolant looks good, just had a brand new radiator done and my NEW mech said it looked very good.

Oil is good too, not frothy or milky.

[kryptonitexj]

Melissa, I have an Idea. You said you changed your own oil. Did you happen to check under the oil filter to make sure there isn't a double gasket. when you pull off the oil filter some times the old gasket sticks and if you install the new filter and leave the old one when the oil pressure rises it can spray every where. give it a check and let me know.

[Melissa]

Melissa, I have an Idea. You said you changed your own oil. Did you happen to check under the oil filter to make sure there isn't a double gasket. when you pull off the oil filter some times the old gasket sticks and if you install the new filter and leave the old one when the oil pressure rises it can spray every where. give it a check and let me know.

Checked :thumbsup:

No double gasket :thumbdown:

Shoot!!!, next thoughts???

[Melissa]

I had to run to town and check my mail, so I taped a piece of paper towel around my dip stick tube and took off. When I got home I checked and just what I thought, the paper towel was soaked with oil. This is really a problem and I need some ideas on what to try next.

I am going to pull the valve cover today, what should I do to clean it?

Also what is the normal oil pressure my jeep should be running?

I think I remember it running about 40psi with my old motor, but I noticed today that it was running between 60-70psi

[whowey]

60-70 psi of oil pressure is HIGH. But the dash gauge is notoriously innaccurate.

I don't have to sugar coat it for you. A head gasket is not going to the culprit.

The exhaust smell in the oil is an indicator of blow-by. What happens is that when the fuel ignites, it creates the highest point of pressure inside the cylinder. The piston also happens to be at the top, so the rings are at their closest point to the high pressure. Some of the exhaust gases escape past the worn rings past the piston skirt and into the crankcase.

Now if your CCV system was operating correctly, it would allow those gases to pass into the intake manifold and be burned. But from your dipstick test.. we now know that is not happening correctly. So the first job is to pull the small orifice off of the intake manifold where the rear CCV hose connects and make sure that is clean. The white portion is a small one way valve and should not fail, but they have been known to at times and were/are available at the dealer. The brass piece that connects that to the intake manifold can also be removed and cleaned. Do this before removing the valve cover for cleaning. Some times this is all the CCV system needs to get it back working correctly.

But if you have to remove the valve cover to clean it.. It VERY obvious where to clean. There are two plastic risers that are under the CCV connections. They are held in by two screws each. Remove them. Clean them and the areas under them.

I missed one of your questions.

Yes, old oil will smell much like exhaust. But that is because all vehicles have some leakage of combustion gases into the crankcase. But with you only changing the a month ago, you are getting the smell because of the blow-by.

[Melissa]

60-70 psi of oil pressure is HIGH. But the dash gauge is notoriously innaccurate.

I don't have to sugar coat it for you. A head gasket is not going to the culprit.

The exhaust smell in the oil is an indicator of blow-by. What happens is that when the fuel ignites, it creates the highest point of pressure inside the cylinder. The piston also happens to be at the top, so the rings are at their closest point to the high pressure. Some of the exhaust gases escape past the worn rings past the piston skirt and into the crankcase.

Now if your CCV system was operating correctly, it would allow those gases to pass into the intake manifold and be burned. But from your dipstick test.. we now know that is not happening correctly. So the first job is to pull the small orifice off of the intake manifold where the rear CCV hose connects and make sure that is clean. The white portion is a small one way valve and should not fail, but they have been known to at times and were/are available at the dealer. The brass piece that connects that to the intake manifold can also be removed and cleaned. Do this before removing the valve cover for cleaning. Some times this is all the CCV system needs to get it back working correctly.

But if you have to remove the valve cover to clean it.. It VERY obvious where to clean. There are two plastic risers that are under the CCV connections. They are held in by two screws each. Remove them. Clean them and the areas under them.

I missed one of your questions.

Yes, old oil will smell much like exhaust. But that is because all vehicles have some leakage of combustion gases into the crankcase. But with you only changing the a month ago, you are getting the smell because of the blow-by.



Okay I went out and took off the small orifice and brass piece like you said, checked and cleaned them ( they were not clogged )

While looking at the hose that runs from the valve cover to the intake I noticed it was kinked right above the brass fitting on the intake, kinked kind of like this.



http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0648.jpg





I cut the hose shorter and took the kink out.

I also checked the front CCV hose and fitting, looked good, no clogs.

After that I took my jeep around back, put degreaser on the underside, waited about 60 sec then took the hose and nicely hosed off all the oil as best as I could. Once that was done I taped another piece of paper towel to the dip stick tube and ran it to and from town again. I got home and the paper towel was clean. So far no more blow by from the dip stick tube. :smiley-gen165:

Do you think the kink in the CCV hose is to blame??

Also I just had a brand new oil pressure sending unit installed back in March, do you still think my gauge is reading wrong, or that I really do have too high oil pressure??


Thank you whowey!! I am learning alot and you are giving me detailed information that I can understand!!

[Mudderoy]

What is the oil pressure after the jeep is hot? Didn't you mech replace the oil pump? I mean isn't it new?

[Melissa]

What is the oil pressure after the jeep is hot? Didn't you mech replace the oil pump? I mean isn't it new?

Nope no new oil pump, just the oil pressure sending unit.

I had not thought about if my Jeep was warmed up or not when I was watching the gauge. I just took it out again and made sure it was good and warm.

Gauge at an idle when warm

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0649.jpg


Gauge at about 1500rpm when warm

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0650.jpg

That looks better, doesn't it?


Better even yet, is that I still have no blow by so far :thumbsup:

[xjjeepthing]

Nice news. It could have been the hose. If it was closed and not letting it vent.
http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=257836

This might help

[Melissa]

Thanks jeepthing!!, I printed that out and am going do my valve cover tomorrow.

[whowey]

Okay I went out and took off the small orifice and brass piece like you said, checked and cleaned them ( they were not clogged )

While looking at the hose that runs from the valve cover to the intake I noticed it was kinked right above the brass fitting on the intake, kinked kind of like this.



http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0648.jpg





I cut the hose shorter and took the kink out.

I also checked the front CCV hose and fitting, looked good, no clogs.

After that I took my jeep around back, put degreaser on the underside, waited about 60 sec then took the hose and nicely hosed off all the oil as best as I could. Once that was done I taped another piece of paper towel to the dip stick tube and ran it to and from town again. I got home and the paper towel was clean. So far no more blow by from the dip stick tube. :smiley-gen165:

Do you think the kink in the CCV hose is to blame??

Also I just had a brand new oil pressure sending unit installed back in March, do you still think my gauge is reading wrong, or that I really do have too high oil pressure??


Thank you whowey!! I am learning alot and you are giving me detailed information that I can understand!!

That kinked hose was just above the brass orifice?? Then yes.. that certainly could be contributing heavily to your problem. That particular line is the one that lets the gases into the intake manifold. So it being kinked would cause the crankcase pressure to rise.

Yes.. that oil pressure looks much better.

A large portion of the problem with the dash gauge is its design. It is really not much more than a variable resistor that uses the housing and its block connection for the ground.

On the early XJs, you get a bad ground and you get a unreasonably high reading. On newer models, you get a bad ground and you get an unreasonably low reading. Having a Renix XJ.. you get the high reading.

You are very welcome... It is a pleasure to help folks that are actually interested in the correct answers and not just the ones that sound cheap or the ones spouted by people with the same incorrect ideas repeated over and over.

[Xtreme XJ]

Well done on the tutorial and the troubleshooting you two...

Curt

[Melissa]

That kinked hose was just above the brass orifice?? Then yes.. that certainly could be contributing heavily to your problem. That particular line is the one that lets the gases into the intake manifold. So it being kinked would cause the crankcase pressure to rise.

Yes.. that oil pressure looks much better.

A large portion of the problem with the dash gauge is its design. It is really not much more than a variable resistor that uses the housing and its block connection for the ground.

On the early XJs, you get a bad ground and you get a unreasonably high reading. On newer models, you get a bad ground and you get an unreasonably low reading. Having a Renix XJ.. you get the high reading.

You are very welcome... It is a pleasure to help folks that are actually interested in the correct answers and not just the ones that sound cheap or the ones spouted by people with the same incorrect ideas repeated over and over.

Yes right above the brass orifice is where it was kinked.

Thinking back when I had the blow by before around the dip stick, I changed my air filter from the K&N one I had bought back to a regular throw away one cause the K&N was saturated in oil. But at that same time I saw a vacuum hose that was collapsing in on it's self, I changed that hose to the one I just shortened today, and later found out that it was a CCV hose, Hmmm, thinking now, I bet that is why I stopped having the blow by for more than a month http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/doh.gif




Well done on the tutorial and the troubleshooting you two...

Curt

Thanks, I really love to learn about how to fix my own Jeep, makes me feel good :o

[Mudderoy]

Mel stay close to home, say walking distance... Drive your jeep around. I'd push it so it gets warm. Basically you want to simulate a long drive which I think you can do by driving it around the yard (ranch) fairly hard. I'd say really hard, but I don't want it to break and be my fault.

You should know how far you can push it. Watch those gauges. I don't know about you but my wife never looks at them.

If you are going to start blowing oil it should happen while under heavy load.

If anyone else has some thoughts jump in there.

[Melissa]

Mel stay close to home, say walking distance... Drive your jeep around. I'd push it so it gets warm. Basically you want to simulate a long drive which I think you can do by driving it around the yard (ranch) fairly hard. I'd say really hard, but I don't want it to break and be my fault.

You should know how far you can push it. Watch those gauges. I don't know about you but my wife never looks at them.

If you are going to start blowing oil it should happen while under heavy load.

If anyone else has some thoughts jump in there.

I am headed out now to push my jeep, I won't get stranded anywhere I dont want to walk back from.

I watch my gauges more than I think I watch the road :headbag:

I will update when I get home

[Melissa]

Okay, I put my Jeep through it's paces for over an hour and a half. I went up and down hills, pushed it while in 4H and 4L, I even hooked the 14ft flat bed trailer (3500lbs empty) to it and ran it up and down a pretty good hill. No oil blow by.

:cheerleader: :beavis: :smiley-dance015: :smiley-dance011:

Do you think I am now good to go??

Do you think I should trust it to make a 8 hour round trip drive?

[Mudderoy]

Okay, I put my Jeep through it's paces for over an hour and a half. I went up and down hills, pushed it while in 4H and 4L, I even hooked the 14ft flat bed trailer (3500lbs empty) to it and ran it up and down a pretty good hill. No oil blow by.

:cheerleader: :beavis: :smiley-dance015: :smiley-dance011:

Do you think I am now good to go??

Do you think I should trust it to make a 8 hour round trip drive?

Only you know your jeep, so would you trust it?

Personally I'd drive somewhere a little closer first, maybe 30 minutes or an hour away. Take some oil with you no matter what!

Isn't it an hour into town? I'd try that, might even try towing that trailer. I mean don't try to break anything. I'm always concerned about breaking down far from home. It would be really expensive for me. I guess not so much for you because you have the Dodge and a trailer. You could always get home, somehow, then go back and pick up the Jeep.

[Melissa]

Only you know your jeep, so would you trust it?

Personally I'd drive somewhere a little closer first, maybe 30 minutes or an hour away. Take some oil with you no matter what!

Isn't it an hour into town? I'd try that, might even try towing that trailer. I mean don't try to break anything. I'm always concerned about breaking down far from home. It would be really expensive for me. I guess not so much for you because you have the Dodge and a trailer. You could always get home, somehow, then go back and pick up the Jeep.



:thumbsup::thumbsup:

It is pretty easy for me to get my Jeep home if it fails, I knew I liked my Dodge for a reason :rotfl2:

I will take that advice, and head to Hermiston its over 70 miles there and back.

I do have extra oil in the back, just in case.

[Melissa]

Alright, I did a 9 hour round trip today with my jeep and I never had anymore oil blow by, but I do have some questions.

First I was watching my oil gauge on the trip home and it kept bouncing around from 40 to 60 psi?? I had the cruise control on and was cruising at about 65 mph on the flat freeway no hills and I was at a constant rpm I think it was at 2,000rpm, it did not bounce around on the trip there, any ideas??

Second, granted it was 103 degrees on the trip home, my gauge kept climbing to 235, I did have the ac on and I had cruise control at 65mph and 2,000rpm, normally when I get out on the highway it stays at 155 even with the ac on.

Then I turned off of the freeway and the last 45 miles you range speeds from 25-55mph, well I still had the ac on, it was still 103 outside, but my gauge dropped to 210 and never left, why is that?? Why when traveling on level gound, and a constant speed did I run higher temps than speeding up, slowing down, and going up and down hills, it makes no sense to me at all. Any ideas?? :(

[Mudderoy]

Alright, I did a 9 hour round trip today with my jeep and I never had anymore oil blow by, but I do have some questions.

First I was watching my oil gauge on the trip home and it kept bouncing around from 40 to 60 psi?? I had the cruise control on and was cruising at about 65 mph on the flat freeway no hills and I was at a constant rpm I think it was at 2,000rpm, it did not bounce around on the trip there, any ideas??

Second, granted it was 103 degrees on the trip home, my gauge kept climbing to 235, I did have the ac on and I had cruise control at 65mph and 2,000rpm, normally when I get out on the highway it stays at 155 even with the ac on.

Then I turned of the freeway and the last 45 miles you range speeds from 25-55mph, well I still had the ac on, it was still 103 outside, but my gauge dropped to 210 and never left, why is that?? Why when traveling on level gound, and a constant speed did I run higher temps than speeding up, slowing down, and going up and down hills, it makes no sense to me at all. Any ideas?? :(

I dunno, I'm just glad you made it.

[Melissa]

I dunno, I'm just glad you made it.

I am too :D

My jeep ran excellent, just the two issues concerned me a bit.

[xjjeepthing]

First the oil pressure. I'd check the sender for the gauge make sure it working proper.
The temp. First Make sure its full of coolant, its possible the thermostat stuck closed and made temp go up, when it finally opened it let the temp come down.

[BlueXJ]

First the oil pressure. I'd check the sender for the gauge make sure it working proper.
The temp. First Make sure its full of coolant, its possible the thermostat stuck closed and made temp go up, when it finally opened it let the temp come down.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation. I would buy that as your reason.
Did you ever do the ZJ fan clutch like Muddy? That may help to stabilize the temps.

[Mudderoy]

Alright, I did a 9 hour round trip today with my jeep and I never had anymore oil blow by, but I do have some questions.

First I was watching my oil gauge on the trip home and it kept bouncing around from 40 to 60 psi?? I had the cruise control on and was cruising at about 65 mph on the flat freeway no hills and I was at a constant rpm I think it was at 2,000rpm, it did not bounce around on the trip there, any ideas??

Second, granted it was 103 degrees on the trip home, my gauge kept climbing to 235, I did have the ac on and I had cruise control at 65mph and 2,000rpm, normally when I get out on the highway it stays at 155 even with the ac on.

Then I turned off of the freeway and the last 45 miles you range speeds from 25-55mph, well I still had the ac on, it was still 103 outside, but my gauge dropped to 210 and never left, why is that?? Why when traveling on level gound, and a constant speed did I run higher temps than speeding up, slowing down, and going up and down hills, it makes no sense to me at all. Any ideas?? :(

Hey! I know what it is. It's all that coolant in the oil from the blown head gasket! It just hit me.

[Melissa]

First the oil pressure. I'd check the sender for the gauge make sure it working proper.
The temp. First Make sure its full of coolant, its possible the thermostat stuck closed and made temp go up, when it finally opened it let the temp come down.



It's a brand new oil pressure sending unit, less than 90 days old, how do i check to make sure it's working proper??

My coolant is full, I check the oil and coolant levels every day just to be sure.




That sounds like a reasonable explanation. I would buy that as your reason.
Did you ever do the ZJ fan clutch like Muddy? That may help to stabilize the temps.



I am going to get the new clutch fan like Muddy put on.

Now I know it was said somewhere, but how do I check the clutch fan, to make sure it's working proper, I know it turns on, but it waits until it's about 235 to turn on.




Hey! I know what it is. It's all that coolant in the oil from the blown head gasket! It just hit me.



Smart ***, lol, both the oil and the coolant look good, and even though I check everyday, my coolant level is always full.

[whowey]

The factory oil pressure senders and gauges are notoriously inaccurate and flaky. Grounding issues can make them not operate correctly.

The temp is by far a more concerning issue.
The mechanical fan clutch may be failing or has failed.

When the Jeep is stone cold, try and spin the mechanical fan by hand. It should spin freely. Now drive the Jeep around and get it hot enough to open the T-stat. Turn the Jeep off and try to spin the fan. It should be VERY tight to spin.

Getting hot at highway speeds tends to indicate that the clutch is failing open. In other words its not spinning fast enough on the highway to keep the engine cool.

[BlueXJ]

Sometimes the guage connection on the oil pressure guage can be loose or dirty from oil accumulation and though you have a new sender the old connection on the end of the wire is still dirty and oily and cause a poor connection.
The fan can be checked as Howler indicated and the replacement should cure your overheat problem.

[Melissa]

The factory oil pressure senders and gauges are notoriously inaccurate and flaky. Grounding issues can make them not operate correctly.

The temp is by far a more concerning issue.
The mechanical fan clutch may be failing or has failed.

When the Jeep is stone cold, try and spin the mechanical fan by hand. It should spin freely. Now drive the Jeep around and get it hot enough to open the T-stat. Turn the Jeep off and try to spin the fan. It should be VERY tight to spin.

Getting hot at highway speeds tends to indicate that the clutch is failing open. In other words its not spinning fast enough on the highway to keep the engine cool.



So the clutch fan does not have to actually turn on for this test??

I did take it out and drive it until the t-stat opened, when I got home, I tried to spin the fan and it did spin pretty freely, so I do need to replace the clutch fan?? Installing the heavy duty fan clutch is all I need to do, no other parts required??

Oh and blue, as long as I check my oil, and the level is where it should be, then I should be okay?? until I can get the sending unit checked out

[BlueXJ]

Well the oil being there does not indicate that there is circulation. Oil pressure indicates that the oil pump is in fact pumping oil enough to give it pressure to force it through the oil galleys and thus to the bearing surfaces where it lubricates and cools the bearing surfaces, while washing away any impurities.

[Melissa]

Then I guess thats next after I do the clutch fan.

Here is something interesting (to me at least), I had my jeep out idling and was watching the clutch fan, but I noticed that the electric fan was not turning on. I followed the wires until I ended up looking at this

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/videos/HPIM0658.jpg

well while the motor was still running I unplugged this and instantly the electric fan kicked on, and my temp gauge dropped, so then I plugged it back in and instantly the fan kicked off and my temp rose. What is this piece, and should I replace it as well??

[whowey]

Then I guess thats next after I do the clutch fan.

Here is something interesting (to me at least), I had my jeep out idling and was watching the clutch fan, but I noticed that the electric fan was not turning on. I followed the wires until I ended up looking at this

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/videos/HPIM0658.jpg

well while the motor was still running I unplugged this and instantly the electric fan kicked on, and my temp gauge dropped, so then I plugged it back in and instantly the fan kicked off and my temp rose. What is this piece, and should I replace it as well??



That is your temp switch for your fan. From the looks of the sensor and the thread sealing tape on it, I would guess that it has been changed sometime in the past.


When your Jeep is hot the fan clutch should be engaged and not spin freely. Your clutch fan is spun by the waterpump turning, so when your motor is not running it won't be spinning.

And with that picture I just realized you have an HO Cherokee, rather than a Renix one, like I thought before.

[Melissa]

That is your temp switch for your fan. From the looks of the sensor and the thread sealing tape on it, I would guess that it has been changed sometime in the past.


When your Jeep is hot the fan clutch should be engaged and not spin freely. Your clutch fan is spun by the waterpump turning, so when your motor is not running it won't be spinning.

And with that picture I just realized you have an HO Cherokee, rather than a Renix one, like I thought before.

I thought renix jeeps had smokers windows, like mine does

How by looking at my pic could you tell it is a HO

[Mudderoy]

That is where my temp cooling sensor is. It turns the electric fan on/off indirectly. It tells the computer the coolant temp, and the computer decides if the efan should be on or not.

My efan comes on with the A/C or at 220. Shuts off at 215.

[Melissa]

That is where my temp cooling sensor is. It turns the electric fan on/off indirectly. It tells the computer the coolant temp, and the computer decides if the efan should be on or not.

My efan comes on with the A/C or at 220. Shuts off at 215.


This is the fan thats not comming on until I'm at 235 on the temp gauge, I was wrong, I do believe the clutch fan is going to, but I remember the efan turning on alot sooner than it did today

what should I do to correct this??

[whowey]

I thought renix jeeps had smokers windows, like mine does

How by looking at my pic could you tell it is a HO



Movable wing windows(or smokers windows) were available during most of the Cherokee/Comanche run. They were an option after some point, so they had to be ordered.

The Renix thermostat housing doesn't have the thermal switch in it. When some people do mods on their Renix's they will use that thermostat housing because it has that port.

Then I looked at your little profile thing.. shoulda done that first.;)

[BlueXJ]

Pay attention Bill.

[whowey]

Pay attention Bill.

I know.... its a good thing that the all of the advice I had given has been the same for Renix and HO motors. :cool: Except for the polarity of the oil pressure sender.

But yes that is where the coolant temp sensor for the fan is located at. It certainly could be what is causing your overheating issue.. If the electric fan isn't coming on at the correct temp that would cause the overheating at highway speed.

[BlueXJ]

I am doubting the electric fan is the problem if it is on automaticly when A/C is selected. The thing should be running all the time with the A/C on, thus not affected by a temp sensor at all.

[Melissa]

I know.... its a good thing that the all of the advice I had given has been the same for Renix and HO motors. :cool: Except for the polarity of the oil pressure sender.

But yes that is where the coolant temp sensor for the fan is located at. It certainly could be what is causing your overheating issue.. If the electric fan isn't coming on at the correct temp that would cause the overheating at highway speed.


I am doubting the electric fan is the problem if it is on automaticly when A/C is selected. The thing should be running all the time with the A/C on, thus not affected by a temp sensor at all.

My electric fan does come on as soon as I turn the ac on, and then stays on until I turn the ac off. I am really confused :confused:

Should I replace the fan clutch with the heavy duty one, and also change out the coolant temp sensor at the same time, just in case?

Oh, just a thought, could my water pump have anything to do with any of this? The one I have in there now is new (I believe) but could it be failing as well and adding to my heating up misery??

[whowey]

I'm not a big fan of throw parts at it as a way to fix it.

You have a manual override for your electric fan correct??


Let's see if we can't find a test procedure for that coolant temp sensor....

[Melissa]

I'm not a big fan of throw parts at it as a way to fix it.

You have a manual override for your electric fan correct??


Let's see if we can't find a test procedure for that coolant temp sensor....

not that I know of do I have a manual override for my efan

[Melissa]

That is where my temp cooling sensor is. It turns the electric fan on/off indirectly. It tells the computer the coolant temp, and the computer decides if the efan should be on or not.

My efan comes on with the A/C or at 220. Shuts off at 215.

Oh and Muddy, is this the temp sensor that you said is best if replaced with the dealer part and not the aftermarket??

[whowey]

not that I know of do I have a manual override for my efan


Oh and Muddy, is this the temp sensor that you said is best if replaced with the dealer part and not the aftermarket??

hmm.. could have sworn I saw you say you had a manual override switch in another thread.... my brain is getting old....

A quality aftermarket is perfectly fine... Not something like Wells or PartsPro.


Do you have an AutoZone or Kragen's/Schnucks/Oreillys/Advance near you?? They can quickly check for codes on your Jeep.

Or you can do the on/off key trick yourself. Turn everything inside the Jeep off. make sure the doors, hatch, hood are all closed. turn the key from off to the run position, back to the off position,to the run position, to the off position, and back to the run position. Watch the check engine light. It should send a series of flashes to notify you of codes. Do not turn the key to start anytime during the test or you will have to do it over. The first code it shows should be a 12 to notify you the system is active. The last code it will send is a 55 to notify you of end of test string.



Finally found the damn test.....
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairinfo/repairguide/repairGuideContent.jsp?chapterTitle=Chrysler+Multi-point+Fuel+Injection++Mpi++System&partName=Driveablity+And+Engine+Controls&pageId=0900c152800a9b2c&subChapterTitle=Engine+Coolant+Temperature++Ect++S ensor&partId=0900c152800a9a4f


I hate AutoZone and refuse to buy parts there.. but at least their repair guides are good for something....

[Melissa]

hmm.. could have sworn I saw you say you had a manual override switch in another thread.... my brain is getting old....

A quality aftermarket is perfectly fine... Not something like Wells or PartsPro.


Do you have an AutoZone or Kragen's/Schnucks/Oreillys/Advance near you?? They can quickly check for codes on your Jeep.

Or you can do the on/off key trick yourself. Turn everything inside the Jeep off. make sure the doors, hatch, hood are all closed. turn the key from off to the run position, back to the off position,to the run position, to the off position, and back to the run position. Watch the check engine light. It should send a series of flashes to notify you of codes. Do not turn the key to start anytime during the test or you will have to do it over. The first code it shows should be a 12 to notify you the system is active. The last code it will send is a 55 to notify you of end of test string.



Finally found the damn test.....
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairinfo/repairguide/repairGuideContent.jsp?chapterTitle=Chrysler+Multi-point+Fuel+Injection++Mpi++System&partName=Driveablity+And+Engine+Controls&pageId=0900c152800a9b2c&subChapterTitle=Engine+Coolant+Temperature++Ect++S ensor&partId=0900c152800a9a4f


I hate AutoZone and refuse to buy parts there.. but at least their repair guides are good for something....

No to all those part stores, none of them are anywhere near me as far as I know. I will try the key test in the morning, thanks.

The link to autozon takes me to a member sign up page, is there a way around without having to become a member?

[whowey]

No to all those part stores, none of them are anywhere near me as far as I know. I will try the key test in the morning, thanks.

The link to autozon takes me to a member sign up page, is there a way around without having to become a member?

I will cut and paste it here for you. I'm sure there is another way... but I'm not that tech saavy.


TESTING


See Figures 3 and 4

1.With the engine cold, remove the ECT sensor.
2.Immerse the tip of the sensor in container of water.
3.Connect a digital ohmmeter to the two terminals of the sensor.
4.Using a calibrated thermometer, compare the resistance of the sensor to the temperature of the water. Refer to the sensor resistance illustration.
5.Repeat the test at two other temperature points, heating or cooling the water as necessary.
6.If the sensor does not meet specification, it must be replaced.


http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss47/whowey/0900c152800a9b30.jpg

[Melissa]

One quick question, what is the ECT sensor?

[BlueXJ]

These are the stores in your area Mel.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/storelocator/storeLocatorMain.jsp?targetPage=storeLocatorResult s&_requestid=479340

[Melissa]

Well I'll be dipped, there is an Autozone 40 miles from me, never knew!!

[whowey]

One quick question, what is the ECT sensor?

That's the technical name of that coolant temp sensor. Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor is what that means.

[Melissa]

That's the technical name of that coolant temp sensor. Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor is what that means.

Okay, thought so, but also thought I'd better double check before I go and mess something up on my quest, thanks whowey

Wait a minute, my check engine light is not on, so I won't get any codes will I??

[whowey]

Okay, thought so, but also thought I'd better double check before I go and mess something up on my quest, thanks whowey

Wait a minute, my check engine light is not on, so I won't get any codes will I??

You should get both 12 and 55. They tell you the system is working. But.. sometimes with intermittent codes the light doesn't stay on. So the answer is maybe. Or your sensor may not be far enough gone to get the computer to set the code yet.

[Melissa]

You should get both 12 and 55. They tell you the system is working. But.. sometimes with intermittent codes the light doesn't stay on. So the answer is maybe. Or your sensor may not be far enough gone to get the computer to set the code yet.

Okay I did the code check and my computer is not throwing any codes at me.

Also I have not been able to use a ohmmeter to test my ect sensor.

Yesterday my e-fan kicked on at 215 stayed on until my temp hit 210 then shut off, but later it did not kick on untill I was almost at 235 and then shut off when I was back down to 215. Is this normal what it's doing?? I wouldn't think so.

Until I can get ahold of a ohmmeter, is there anything alse I should be doing to keep my temps consistant?

I am still really confused on what is going on, but I do not know what to do to correct my problem.

Here is my list of parts I want to change out, what do you think should be the first?

OEM water Pump to the high flow water pump

Clutch fan to the HD clutch fan

OEM ECT sensor

OEM temp sensor to a new OEM temp sensor

I'm thinking the way I have it listed, but is my ECT the same thing as a temp sensor??

Opinions??

[firehawk]

Not wanting to hijack or anything but... You're saying the efan should ALWAYS be running when the A/C is turned on? Mine isn't on my '00. Is that telling me my temp sensor is bad?

[whowey]

Okay I did the code check and my computer is not throwing any codes at me.

Also I have not been able to use a ohmmeter to test my ect sensor.

Yesterday my e-fan kicked on at 215 stayed on until my temp hit 210 then shut off, but later it did not kick on untill I was almost at 235 and then shut off when I was back down to 215. Is this normal what it's doing?? I wouldn't think so.

Until I can get ahold of a ohmmeter, is there anything alse I should be doing to keep my temps consistant?

I am still really confused on what is going on, but I do not know what to do to correct my problem.

Here is my list of parts I want to change out, what do you think should be the first?

OEM water Pump to the high flow water pump

Clutch fan to the HD clutch fan

OEM ECT sensor

OEM temp sensor to a new OEM temp sensor

I'm thinking the way I have it listed, but is my ECT the same thing as a temp sensor??

Opinions??

First would be the fan clutch.. you already said it wasn't engaging fully.

The aftermarket parts guide I have shows two.. One for the fan/emissions and one for the gauge.

[firehawk]

Here is a quote from my FSM about the electric fan.

Electric cooling fan 4.0L: With or without A/C
request the electric fan will come on only when the
coolant temperature is at least 106° C (223° F), and
will remain on until the coolant temperature drops to
103° C (217° F) or below. Regardless of coolant temperature,
When air conditioning system pressures
reach 2068.5 6 138 kPa (300 6 20 psi) the electric
fan will engage and continue to run until the A/C
system pressure drops to 1620.3 kPa (235 psi) minimum,
then the electric fan will shut off.

Here's causes for your fluctuating temperature guage.

TEMPERATURE GAUGE READING
IS INCONSISTENT (FLUCTUATES,
CYCLES OR IS ERRATIC)
(CONTINUED)
8. Water pump impeller loose on
shaft.
8. Check water pump and replace
as necessary. Refer to water Pumps
in this group.

9. Loose accessory drive belt.
(water pump slipping)
9. Refer to Accessory Drive Belts in
this group. Check and correct as
necessary.

10. Air leak on the suction side of
the water pump allows air to build
up in cooling system causing
thermostat to open late.
10. Locate leak and repair as
necessary.

[Melissa]

Well I am waiting for parts, so I decided to change out the coolant temp sensor today since I have it. Can you all guess what I did wrong?!?



:rotfl2::rotfl2:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0724.jpg

[Mudderoy]

Waited too long to go to the bathroom?

[Melissa]

Waited too long to go to the bathroom?

Well if I had waited to long to go to the bathroom, then the ground would look like that not my engine :rotfl2:

[Mudderoy]

Sometimes I jump up and down when I have to go really bad.

[Melissa]

I'd have to be jumping really high to do that

[whowey]

You mean other than not removing the radiator cap and loosing the sensor slowly....

[Melissa]

You mean other than not removing the radiator cap and loosing the sensor slowly....

Yup, and I never even thought about the fact that there was coolant behind the sensor http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/smilies/doh.gif

[Melissa]

Okay, I changed out the coolant temp sensor on my jeep ( The old tested bad ) and now my e-fan still won't turn on until my temp gauge is past 240. I thought maybe the relay had something to do with it, so I went down to the parts store to get one and they told me their book only shows one for up to 91 and then 00 and newer. I checked the one that goes in a 91 and it was different than mine. The parts guy told me to call a Jeep dealer to get one. Does anyone know where I can get one?

Any ideas why my e-fan is not turning on like it should. It does come on, just late and it does come on right away when I turn the A/C on. I know my Jeep has many issues right now, but I am trying to tackle them one at a time. I have started this now I would like to have the temp sensor issue corrected before I move on to the next issue.

Is this a good time to shoot it with an IR gun? I am so confused!!

Sorry to be a broken record, but I am at a loss as to the next step in solving my problems!

[Mudderoy]

Okay, I changed out the coolant temp sensor on my jeep ( The old tested bad ) and now my e-fan still won't turn on until my temp gauge is past 240. I thought maybe the relay had something to do with it, so I went down to the parts store to get one and they told me their book only shows one for up to 91 and then 00 and newer. I checked the one that goes in a 91 and it was different than mine. The parts guy told me to call a Jeep dealer to get one. Does anyone know where I can get one?

Any ideas why my e-fan is not turning on like it should. It does come on, just late and it does come on right away when I turn the A/C on. I know my Jeep has many issues right now, but I am trying to tackle them one at a time. I have started this now I would like to have the temp sensor issue corrected before I move on to the next issue.

Is this a good time to shoot it with an IR gun? I am so confused!!

Sorry to be a broken record, but I am at a loss as to the next step in solving my problems!

I am confused why the efan would come on at 240. Perhaps the gauge is reading wrong. I think it still goes back to confirming the information you are being given by your instruments. You cannot make a correct decision based on bad, or dubious information.

[Melissa]

I am confused why the efan would come on at 240. Perhaps the gauge is reading wrong. I think it still goes back to confirming the information you are being given by your instruments. You cannot make a correct decision based on bad, or dubious information.

I have been questioning that to, when I shoot the IR gun, where should I have it pointed, at the radiator?

[Mudderoy]

I have been questioning that to, when I shoot the IR gun, where should I have it pointed, at the radiator?

I measured mine at the thermostat housing, that is where my temp sensor is located.

[Melissa]

I measured mine at the thermostat housing, that is where my temp sensor is located.

Oh geeezee, Duh.............comes to mind :rotfl2:

That makes sense, I'll start there and see what happens

[Melissa]

Okay, I used the IR gun the results were

Temp gauge read (Inside on the dash pannel)......210
Thermostat Housing read.................................210
Radiator read.............................................. ..208
Tranny Cooler read.........................................212

After that I let my Jeep heat up, my e-fan still never kicked on

Temp gauge read.....................................240
Thermostat Housing read...........................240
Radiator read...........................................237
Tranny Cooler read...................................239

What am I missing, why is the e-fan not kicking on??

I unplugged the coolant temp sensor when my Jeep temp gauge was reading 240, the e-fan kicked right on and cooled my Jeep untill the gauge read 208, then I plugged the sensor back in and the e-fan turned right off again.

Is there something else that controls the e-fan besides the coolant temp sensor??

Any ideas?? I am open to try anything at this point

[Mudderoy]

Excellent! Now you are sure the problem isn't with the temp sensor.

What reads the temp sensor data and turns on the e-fan?

[Mudderoy]

Well I did some quick searches, and I don't see the problem you are having. The efan either comes on when it is supposed to and if it doesn't it's the temp sensor. If it doesn't come on at all they recommend looking at the under hood relay. I guess you could change the relay for grins, but the only thing that fits, is a bad computer.

I think the temp signal goes to the PCM and the PCM tells the efan to come on.

Personally I'd just wire up a switch so I could turn on the efan manually. I want to do that anyway so I can override the automatic on/off of the efan.

[Melissa]

Well I did some quick searches, and I don't see the problem you are having. The efan either comes on when it is supposed to and if it doesn't it's the temp sensor. If it doesn't come on at all they recommend looking at the under hood relay. I guess you could change the relay for grins, but the only thing that fits, is a bad computer.

I think the temp signal goes to the PCM and the PCM tells the efan to come on.

Personally I'd just wire up a switch so I could turn on the efan manually. I want to do that anyway so I can override the automatic on/off of the efan.

Lets see if I am remembering right the PCM is the Power Control Module?

I can not find a diagram of this in my haynes manual.

I was going to change the relay just for grins, but the part store told me that his book only had e-fan relays for 91 or older, and 00 and newer Jeeps. I looked at the relay for the 91 and it was different then mine. My relay has five prongs while the relay for the 91 has only 4 ( the one missing on the 91 relay is the prong in the middle ), he then told me I'll have to call a dealer for the correct relay.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0759.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0757.jpg


I would like to have a override switch installed, but I would have to have someone else do it, so If I can figure it out and fix it on my own, that would be so much sweeter.

[Melissa]

Oh, I even tried swapping relays with the fuel pump relay since they are the same relay, but nothing different happened and my fuel pump I could still hear prime before every start up.

reading in my owners manual, I checked the two mini fuses connected to the e-fan, one said aux. cooling fan relay coil, is this meaning the relay I already pictured above or might there be another relay?

[Melissa]

It appears that the mechanical and electrical parts of the efan system are OK. However, the coolant temp sensor sends voltage to the PCM which has a little relay in it that closes and makes the ground for the efan relay that you can see. There have been several on this and another forum that had PCMs that failed to switch the fan on. You have two options. Replace the PCM or put in a switch.


This was one of the responses I recieved at another forum. Does the response sound kind of rude, or is it just me?


Anyways, does anyone have a diagram of a PCM for a 93, or can tell me where and if it is in my haynes manual anywhere?

[Mudderoy]

It appears that the mechanical and electrical parts of the efan system are OK. However, the coolant temp sensor sends voltage to the PCM which has a little relay in it that closes and makes the ground for the efan relay that you can see. There have been several on this and another forum that had PCMs that failed to switch the fan on. You have two options. Replace the PCM or put in a switch.


This was one of the responses I recieved at another forum. Does the response sound kind of rude, or is it just me?


Anyways, does anyone have a diagram of a PCM for a 93, or can tell me where and if it is in my haynes manual anywhere?

It's pretty much to the point. I think the "There have been several on this..." is saying why didn't you research this before bothering me. Which is SOP for several people on the various boards.

I need to go back and read, but I thought you said the efan comes on just not until you hit 240. If it didn't come on at all it would make more sense.

Hmmm come to think of it you know they do make temp sensors for efans. You could just get one of those, wire it up to your efan and adjust the setting until you got it where you liked it. I still like the idea of a manual over ride switch though.

[Melissa]

It's pretty much to the point. I think the "There have been several on this..." is saying why didn't you research this before bothering me. Which is SOP for several people on the various boards.

I need to go back and read, but I thought you said the efan comes on just not until you hit 240. If it didn't come on at all it would make more sense.

Hmmm come to think of it you know they do make temp sensors for efans. You could just get one of those, wire it up to your efan and adjust the setting until you got it where you liked it. I still like the idea of a manual over ride switch though.

Yup, after reading several posts about it, I think I'm gonna have to do a manual over ride switch, I believe Howler did a write up on that didn't he? I'll have to go search for that one.

[Mudderoy]

Yup, after reading several posts about it, I think I'm gonna have to do a manual over ride switch, I believe Howler did a write up on that didn't he? I'll have to go search for that one.

Hey! Turn the wipers on I can't see out your avatar.

[Melissa]

Hey! Turn the wipers on I can't see out your avatar.

It's reflecting my mood, yes........................................ sometimes I can be such a girl :eek: :rotfl2:

[Mudderoy]

It's reflecting my mood, yes........................................ sometimes I can be such a girl :eek: :rotfl2:

I know it's not in style these days, but I like girls! :D

[kryptonitexj]

Melissa,
you should try and adjustable e-fan sensor. I have one on my jeep and it works great. It cost about 35 bucks you wire it on watch your temp gauge then set the controller to come on at your desired temp I have mine set to 180 deg. F.

[Melissa]

Melissa,
you should try and adjustable e-fan sensor. I have one on my jeep and it works great. It cost about 35 bucks you wire it on watch your temp gauge then set the controller to come on at your desired temp I have mine set to 180 deg. F.

Okay, point me in the direction I need to go to get one, PLEASE!!!

[kryptonitexj]

Heres one on ebay. Very similar to the one I run.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Derale-Adjustable-Fan-Controler-Automotive-Radiator-Fan_W0QQitemZ310158355457QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4836e0ec01&_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116#ht_1069wt_935
The little metal probe gets attached to the radiator(its the temp sensor), the yellow wire foes to ign. hot, the orange and blue got to the fans (Can operate 1 or 2 e-fans.) black to ground. Green goes to A/C clutch(So that when you turn the A/C on the E-fan come on). If you need any more help Just let me know.

[Melissa]

Heres one on ebay. Very similar to the one I run.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Derale-Adjustable-Fan-Controler-Automotive-Radiator-Fan_W0QQitemZ310158355457QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4836e0ec01&_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116#ht_1069wt_935
The little metal probe gets attached to the radiator(its the temp sensor), the yellow wire foes to ign. hot, the orange and blue got to the fans (Can operate 1 or 2 e-fans.) black to ground. Green goes to A/C clutch(So that when you turn the A/C on the E-fan come on). If you need any more help Just let me know.


:cheerleader::notworthy:


Thanks!!!

[Melissa]

After some research into prices on the adjustable fan controllers, I think I have decided on this one, do you think it will work??

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HDA-3647?autofilter=1&part=HDA-3647&N=700+4294924500+4294860934+4294908153+4294840135+ 4294925080+115&autoview=sku

Or do you think I need one with more range??

[Mudderoy]

After some research into prices on the adjustable fan controllers, I think I have decided on this one, do you think it will work??

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HDA-3647?autofilter=1&part=HDA-3647&N=700+4294924500+4294860934+4294908153+4294840135+ 4294925080+115&autoview=sku

Or do you think I need one with more range??

I like it. Has anyone had any bad experience with Hayden?

The only thing I would do is check to see if you can use it with an electric replacement fan for you mechanical fan.

[Melissa]

I like it. Has anyone had any bad experience with Hayden?

The only thing I would do is check to see if you can use it with an electric replacement fan for you mechanical fan.


Sorry, but huh??

[Mudderoy]

Sorry, but huh??

My long term goal is to replace both the mechanical and electrical fans with dual electric fans. They will be controlled by a temp sensor like the one you are getting. I am recommending that you make sure that this will work in case you decide to say replace the mechanical fan in the future with an electrical. No sense in buying two, one now then one later.

[Melissa]

My long term goal is to replace both the mechanical and electrical fans with dual electric fans. They will be controlled by a temp sensor like the one you are getting. I am recommending that you make sure that this will work in case you decide to say replace the mechanical fan in the future with an electrical. No sense in buying two, one now then one later.

Got ya, I will check.

I was just looking at dual electric fans tonight and thinking I wouldn't mind having one of those :D

[Mudderoy]

Got ya, I will check.

I was just looking at dual electric fans tonight and thinking I wouldn't mind having one of those :D

I really like the idea. Less drag on the engine, more cooling. I mean come on why cool 1/2 of the radiator!?!?! I understand the radiator is long and skinny so a single fan isn't possible, but why not cover it with 2 efans and then run them both as the coolant temp demands. The engine produces more horse power and better cooling (even if running at the 210) will make the engine last longer. At least that's what I have come up with.

[Melissa]

I'm going to keep my eye on the dual e-fans, but for now I really need to get my jeep back on the road, it has been sitting outside for days with it's poor hood up missing the water pump, thermostat, and fan clutch, it looks so sad sitting there like that.

[ol"blue]

Anyways, does anyone have a diagram of a PCM for a 93, or can tell me where and if it is in my haynes manual anywhere?
http://www.greatlakesxj.com/tech.html
Go on there and download a free pdf FSM for your '93 XJ. It should have the info you need. Besides the free manuals, there's lots of other good info there too.
Dan

[whowey]

After some research into prices on the adjustable fan controllers, I think I have decided on this one, do you think it will work??

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HDA-3647?autofilter=1&part=HDA-3647&N=700+4294924500+4294860934+4294908153+4294840135+ 4294925080+115&autoview=sku

Or do you think I need one with more range??


I like it. Has anyone had any bad experience with Hayden?

The only thing I would do is check to see if you can use it with an electric replacement fan for you mechanical fan.



I used to use Hayden fan controllers on my mud bog racing trucks.. good solid parts. I would be a bit concerned on the range though. The XJ is designed to run at temps around 210. That particular controller's max temp is 210.

The main concern with using dual electric fans is that 90% of electrical fans do not move the same CFM of air as the mechanical one once the clutch is fully engaged.

It may not be as large a concern for Melissa living out west.. But Muddy living down in hotter than Hades-ville, it will certainly come into effect.

Melissa... back onto your original problem. Now the temp sensor is repaired and you know the Jeep is running at 240. When your Jeep is that hot, how does the fan clutch feel... it should be locked up tight at that kind of temps. If it is not working correctly.. that would be a contributing factor to your temps being so high.

[Melissa]

http://www.greatlakesxj.com/tech.html
Go on there and download a free pdf FSM for your '93 XJ. It should have the info you need. Besides the free manuals, there's lots of other good info there too.
Dan

Thank you ol"blue!!!!





I used to use Hayden fan controllers on my mud bog racing trucks.. good solid parts. I would be a bit concerned on the range though. The XJ is designed to run at temps around 210. That particular controller's max temp is 210.

The main concern with using dual electric fans is that 90% of electrical fans do not move the same CFM of air as the mechanical one once the clutch is fully engaged.

It may not be as large a concern for Melissa living out west.. But Muddy living down in hotter than Hades-ville, it will certainly come into effect.

Melissa... back onto your original problem. Now the temp sensor is repaired and you know the Jeep is running at 240. When your Jeep is that hot, how does the fan clutch feel... it should be locked up tight at that kind of temps. If it is not working correctly.. that would be a contributing factor to your temps being so high.

I thought about that there was another Hayden controller that went to 240 for a little more $.

I have figured out that my fan clutch is not working right as well, so I do have it off and I have been searching for the HD fan clutch to upgrade it with, but that easier said than done, 4 Napa's around here and not one of them has it in stock!!!

[Primo]

hey mel look on ebay I just did there is a few hd clutches and one that says severe duty? $94.00 for the hd with free shipping, don't know how great a price that is but there is also some way more cost effective options there as well

[Mudderoy]

hey mel look on ebay I just did there is a few hd clutches and one that says severe duty? $94.00 for the hd with free shipping, don't know how great a price that is but there is also some way more cost effective options there as well

I paid about $40 for my ZJ HD clutch from NAPA.

[Melissa]

hey mel look on ebay I just did there is a few hd clutches and one that says severe duty? $94.00 for the hd with free shipping, don't know how great a price that is but there is also some way more cost effective options there as well


I paid about $40 for my ZJ HD clutch from NAPA.

well anyway I look at it I am going to have to order one online. I went all over northeastern Oregon and then up to the Tri Cities today hunting the HD clutch fan, but never found one. I hit 12 auto parts stores and not one had one in stock, they all said they could order one for me + freight, but I decided I'll just order it myself from Napa online, at least then it will be shipped right to me and I won't have to go 45 miles or more just to pick it up.

Oh well, my jeep will just have to sit all tore apart until I can get the parts for it.

One last question, I was looking at a Bosch water pump online on sale for around $35 + shipping instead of their regular price of $65 + shipping.

Is Bosch a good brand?? I have decided not to go with a high flow water pump at this time, but I do want to replace the one I have with just a good brand water pump.

[Primo]

I have always had good luck with bosch

[Melissa]

Thanks Primo!!

Okay so it wasn't my last question.

I found this adjustable fan controller with more of a range, does it look like it will fit the bill??

http://www.dougherbert.com/fancontroller-p-12132.html

[Melissa]

well since I nobody answered me I went ahead and ordered the Derale adjustable fan controller, it has a range of 150-240 and can control up to two electric fans.

Finally today I have all the parts I ordered to try and get my Jeep back on the road.

I got the new HD fan clutch, the fan controller, and a Bosch water pump online, all together I spent $142.00 for parts and shipping (not bad) and now I am ready to get to work figuring out how to get the parts on there. I figure it will take me about another week, cause I am slow and I am going to have to learn as I do it :rotfl2:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0776.jpg

I am so excited, I want my jeep back and not have to worry about overheating :thumbsup:

Oh............ forgot to add in my picture that I did get another new thermostat that is a fail safe, and a fel-pro gasket as well.

Melba is happy :cheerleader::cheerleader:


One last note:

RIP girl nails, cause you can bet for sure that they will be gone by the time I'm all done fumbling around under the hood

:smiley-laughing021::smiley-laughing021:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0780.jpg

[Melissa]

The little metal probe gets attached to the radiator(its the temp sensor), the yellow wire foes to ign. hot, the orange and blue got to the fans (Can operate 1 or 2 e-fans.) black to ground. Green goes to A/C clutch(So that when you turn the A/C on the E-fan come on). If you need any more help Just let me know.

Where did you mount the relay?

[Mudderoy]

well since I nobody answered me I went ahead and ordered the Derale adjustable fan controller, it has a range of 150-240 and can control up to two electric fans.

Finally today I have all the parts I ordered to try and get my Jeep back on the road.

I got the new HD fan clutch, the fan controller, and a Bosch water pump online, all together I spent $142.00 for parts and shipping (not bad) and now I am ready to get to work figuring out how to get the parts on there. I figure it will take me about another week, cause I am slow and I am going to have to learn as I do it :rotfl2:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0776.jpg

I am so excited, I want my jeep back and not have to worry about overheating :thumbsup:

Oh............ forgot to add in my picture that I did get another new thermostat that is a fail safe, and a fel-pro gasket as well.

Melba is happy :cheerleader::cheerleader:


One last note:

RIP girl nails, cause you can bet for sure that they will be gone by the time I'm all done fumbling around under the hood

:smiley-laughing021::smiley-laughing021:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0780.jpg

That's the before, lets see the after. :popcorn:

[Melissa]

Surprisingly I did not break a single nail, but I almost cut them all off as they kept getting in my way. I only have the adjustable fan controller left to put on. My new water pump, HD fan clutch and thermostat are all done. The worst part was getting the surp belt back on, man I hated that part, but I am over all very happy as I was able to do this all on my own, with only a few added extras. As I was taking bolts out I noticed that 1/2 of them were bad, so I had to replace them and I lost about a 1/2 gallon of anit-freeze on the ground that missed my bucket. The only bone headed thing I did, was when it was time for the thermostat to get put on, I replaced the gasket, got the thermostat housing all bolted back on and realized I forgot to add the thermostat, other than that it went well and only took me one day to get it done.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0781.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0782.jpg

See I still have the girl nails, and only ended up with two little marks in the back of my hand, that are hard to notice and I am a little swollen behind my first two fingers as that is where I kept banging my hand trying to loosen bolts.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0788.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0786.jpg

Oh and Mudderoy, I do notice a different sound from the new HD fan clutch when I hit 2800rpms, but I don't hear it at road speeds since my jeep is stock and it rides at 2200rpms at 70mph. I only hit 2800rpms when I am throttling through the gears quickly.

[whowey]

Part of the different sound may be your fan actually achieving full lock. If the clutch was bad the fan never did.

[Melissa]

Part of the different sound may be your fan actually achieving full lock. If the clutch was bad the fan never did.


I had already forgotten about that the old fan was going out, thanks whowey!
I was just remembering that Mudderoy said that his HD fan screamed at 2800 rpms

[BlueXJ]

I put the HD fan clutch on and can also hear a difference. Especially in the country away from traffic noises.

[arkoza63]

:congrats: on a job well done. glad your jeep is on the road again.

[Melissa]

:congrats: on a job well done. glad your jeep is on the road again.


Thank you

It makes me feel better that I was able to do it myself and not have to pay someone. :driving:

[ol"blue]

Thank you

It makes me feel better that I was able to do it myself and not have to pay someone. :driving:

Good job Missy, I'm proud of you. :thumbsup:

[whowey]

Congrats!! Does it run cooler???

[Mudderoy]

Surprisingly I did not break a single nail, but I almost cut them all off as they kept getting in my way. I only have the adjustable fan controller left to put on. My new water pump, HD fan clutch and thermostat are all done. The worst part was getting the surp belt back on, man I hated that part, but I am over all very happy as I was able to do this all on my own, with only a few added extras. As I was taking bolts out I noticed that 1/2 of them were bad, so I had to replace them and I lost about a 1/2 gallon of anit-freeze on the ground that missed my bucket. The only bone headed thing I did, was when it was time for the thermostat to get put on, I replaced the gasket, got the thermostat housing all bolted back on and realized I forgot to add the thermostat, other than that it went well and only took me one day to get it done.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0781.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0782.jpg

See I still have the girl nails, and only ended up with two little marks in the back of my hand, that are hard to notice and I am a little swollen behind my first two fingers as that is where I kept banging my hand trying to loosen bolts.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0788.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww305/melreese83/misc%20pictures/HPIM0786.jpg

Oh and Mudderoy, I do notice a different sound from the new HD fan clutch when I hit 2800rpms, but I don't hear it at road speeds since my jeep is stock and it rides at 2200rpms at 70mph. I only hit 2800rpms when I am throttling through the gears quickly.

Maybe that is why mine screams. With the 4.56 gears I hit 3200 easily just leaving a red light.

[Melissa]

Good job Missy, I'm proud of you. :thumbsup:

Thanks!!



Congrats!! Does it run cooler???

Thanks!, well it runs normal now. I did have a 150 thermostat in before, but was told to put back in a OEM, so I put in a 190 fail safe. It now runs at 190 and I have yet to see it get above 210. Unfortunatly, the weather has changed and it's been cooler, so I won't know now if I have solved my problem untill next summer. I do still need to get the adjustable fan controller on, since my e-fan won't kick by its self, but I'll get that done soon



Maybe that is why mine screams. With the 4.56 gears I hit 3200 easily just leaving a red light.


Maybe, I don't get to 3200. I do like the sound it makes at 2800, kind of reminds me of when I would open the secondaries on my suburban :drool:

[Melissa]

Well hands down the HD fan is the best thing I have ever done to my Jeep. I had to take a trip the last three days and ended up all over in Eastern Oregon and then over into Idaho. I can't say enough about how well my new HD clutch fan did on this trip. The outside temps were 95 during the day and my Jeep ran at 190, the only time I saw the temp rise was when I was going up grades and even then they only got to just over 210. I didn't even need the use of my e-fan to help control my temps, I was so happy to see this and I believe that my over heating issue is now gone. I still need to get my adjustable fan controller put on, but I'll get there.

I know I also put a new thermostat, and water pump on at the same time as the fan clutch, but I can guarantee it is the fan clutch that has been the fix, how am I so sure?, I'm a girl, were always right.................. Just kidding!

The thermostat I replaced with the new one was also brand new, just a lower temp thermostat, and the water pump I replaced was also brand new, I just replaced it with a higher quality water pump.

[Mudderoy]

Well hands down the HD fan is the best thing I have ever done to my Jeep. I had to take a trip the last three days and ended up all over in Eastern Oregon and then over into Idaho. I can't say enough about how well my new HD clutch fan did on this trip. The outside temps were 95 during the day and my Jeep ran at 190, the only time I saw the temp rise was when I was going up grades and even then they only got to just over 210. I didn't even need the use of my e-fan to help control my temps, I was so happy to see this and I believe that my over heating issue is now gone. I still need to get my adjustable fan controller put on, but I'll get there.

I know I also put a new thermostat, and water pump on at the same time as the fan clutch, but I can guarantee it is the fan clutch that has been the fix, how am I so sure?, I'm a girl, were always right.................. Just kidding!

The thermostat I replaced with the new one was also brand new, just a lower temp thermostat, and the water pump I replaced was also brand new, I just replaced it with a higher quality water pump.

That's great to hear. I know this will set your mind at ease about the Jeep. Now something else will happen to be sure, but at least you know that you can fix it no matter what.

[Melissa]

That's great to hear. I know this will set your mind at ease about the Jeep. Now something else will happen to be sure, but at least you know that you can fix it no matter what.

Bring on the new challenge, I'm ready, just as long as it happens after or before the snow, not during :D

The best part is that now my Jeep runs cooler than it ever did. It used to run at 210 when I bought it, now it's 190 :cheerleader: