WTH?!?!?! Check Gauges Light for Alternator then Dies.

[Mudderoy]

I left the house about 8:45am this morning for a 1.25 hour trip to msmoorenburg's shop. It's about 70 miles one way.

I was going there to see if we could get the A/C charged on my wife's 1999 Cherokee. I guess we've had it a little over a week now.

After many hours and many screws/nuts/bolts later (Matt dismantled two Cherokee dashes and put one back together) the A/C was working like a charm. I was back home by 5:30pm. Even though much of my activities was watching Matt work I was still very tired from the drive and the heat.

I was pretty happy that I made it back in time for my wife to be able to take her new Jeep to a wedding that she was going to attend. I was also happy because her Mom was going to drive from near the wedding all the way over here to pick her up then take her back home afterwards. Getting the A/C going meant that the 99 was at 100% minus some tires. I was quite pleased.

Then I get a call about 10:30pm. My wife and kids are on their way back home. About a 20 mile trip. Seems the alternator has dropped to 9 volts, which is the lowest it can go. I figured the alternator gave out and there was little she could do but continue to drive.

So about 20 minutes later I get another call. The Jeep isn't running very well and my wife is looking for a place to pull over. I figured that the alternator failed and now most of the power needed to run the coil and plugs is gone.

She tells me she smells something. Burning rubber. Well we had the belt off today, and there is a new (used) compressor installed so maybe the belt is too tight, or the clutch froze up.

I get another call and my step-son says the belt is fine and they had turned the A/C off when the XJ started acting up.

I grabbed a spare belt and some tools and drive the 4 or 5 miles to where they are.

[4.3LXJ]

AND?

[alwaysxj]

wow this is the longest 4 or 5 mile drive ever...



so what did you find out?

[Mudderoy]

After making a "U" turn to get the jumper cables, I get over there. The 99 has the hood up in a parking lot well off of the i-10 feeder. Perfect place to work on it in safety, well if you over look the "mugging" aspect.

I start asking questions. None of it makes sense. The belt is on and it looks fine, however they smelled burning rubber. My step son says he saw something on the intake that was glowing red, but it was something laying on the intake and not the intake itself. I can see what looks like shavings in there. I'm thinking belt, but I don't know.

I try starting the engine. It starts and runs fine. The volt meter shows 14 volts. I turn on the A/C. 14 volt holds and the clutch engages with cool air following shortly after.

I don't see a problem here. None of this makes any sense. The symptoms are, check gauges, 9 volts on the meter. The Jeep starts running funny and eventually dies. I get there and the battery is fine, as it starts the engine with little effort. The engine runs fine.

So to drive it home I figure I better charge the battery. I hook up the jumpers between the Jeeps and begin charging. After a bit maybe 5 minutes (and mind you I'm checking gauges the whole time) I notice oil smoke and then I notice a rattle noise in the engine.

I give it a little gas and the rattle, or ping noise becomes a constant and regular knock. My step son says "oh you have a rod knocking!".

At this point I'm about ready to lose it. I turn the engine off and even though it's about 11:15pm I give Matt (msmoorenburg) a call. I get a very sleepy hello. After a good 5 minutes of apologizing I tell Matt what's going on. He doesn't understand it either.

Through our discussing he tells me to start it up again. It doesn't want to stay running, but that knocking noise is gone. After a few more minutes of talking on the phone I try starting it again.

It starts and seems to run fine. What I can't understand is I'm seeing symptoms of a hot engine here. The rattle/ping noise is just like what you'd expect to hear from pre-detonation.

The gauge reads the appropriate 210, but does change.

I take the radiator cap off the radiator. I suspect it is hot so I do it really slow and listen for the rushing coolant. Nope no issue. I get the cap off and I can't see any coolant. I look at the over flow and it is full, just like it was after filling it before the 140 mile round trip to Matt's place.

I figure I have to get some water in the radiator if for no other reason just so I'll know that it's really full.

I head home with all the family in the 98.

We get home and my wife changes into some jeans, and I fill two Preston antifreeze jugs. My wife and I make the trip back to the 99.

We get there and I start pouring the coolant/water mix into the radiator. I spill some of course, but I notice that very shortly after I am getting it in the radiator I'm hearing splashing sounds on the ground near my feet.

I stop pouring and lay down so I can check the lower hose. It has a big tear in the hose up hear the water pump.

The engine was hot, due to the lack of coolant. It stopped running because it was hot. The temp gauge is either screwed, or it was just measuring air temps. What I find really strange is the air temp was the normal operating temp of the 4.0!

My wife and I return to the house to get a lower hose. I dig around a few minutes and find it, and grab the upper hose for good measure.

Returning to the 99 I find that the lower hose isn't being held on by aftermarket stainless steel hose clamps but those bastard one's from the factory. It takes me a good 30 minutes to get that hose off and the replacement on since I didn't have but one pair of pliers and they were long handled.

I got it on, poured in the two anti-freeze jugs. I drove about 300 yards to a Shell station, and paid a $1 to use their freaking trickle hose for 5 minutes.

I notice a miss when I took off. It was like miss, run fine, miss miss, run fine.

It did this on three occasions as I needed to stop and then accelerate. By the time we got to the main street that runs to our subdivision it didn't do this miss.

[Mudderoy]

I need to learn that when symptoms don't make sense there may be more than one cause. In this case the voltage regulator seems to have a problem and 10 minutes after that happened the lower hose split.

Now it's possible the coolant from the lower hose got into the alternator and caused that problem, but they are on two different sides of the engine bay and the tear was pointing down. In fact a coolant smell or the engine bay covered in coolant would have been an EXCELLENT clue, but that wasn't the case.

[4.3LXJ]

Glad you got it home. Monitor your coolant levels to make sure you don't have any cracks or bad head gaskets.:pray: If it starts missing again, then I would check into this.

[Mudderoy]

Glad you got it home. Monitor your coolant levels to make sure you don't have any cracks or bad head gaskets.:pray: If it starts missing again, then I would check into this.

I took it out for a test drive this morning. Slight miss, (only hear not feel) if it was even that. Sometimes I just get hyper critical after an issue.

Everything ran fine until I turned on the lights the the A/C. Slight squeak and then the voltage dropped 1/2 way then to 9 volts, followed by a "check gauges" light.

I came back home and cranking up the engine with A/C there is a constant squeak, and the voltage drops, so I'm going to let it cool off and tighten the belt.

[4.3LXJ]

Does it do it with the fan on low too?

[Mudderoy]

Does it do it with the fan on low too?

No the electric fans operates as expected.

[4.3LXJ]

I was having a thought, which i am told is dangerous. Was just wondering if the alternator was weak and not providing enough amperage for the fan on high, but maybe on low it would work better. Just a thought

[Mudderoy]

I was having a thought, which i am told is dangerous. Was just wondering if the alternator was weak and not providing enough amperage for the fan on high, but maybe on low it would work better. Just a thought

I went out about an hour or two ago and put on a belt that I had on the 98. I used my graduated thumb (tool for measuring the belt tightness) and tightened the belt to 100 ft pounds.

Started up the Jeep with the A/C on and alternator did fine. Turned on the headlights and the alternator did fine.

I drove it to Home Depot to get some extra keys made and other than running rough for 10 seconds it worked like a champ.

I drove around a little extra on the way home with the lights and A/C on. It took about 20 minutes for the temp to get above 210. It went to about 1/2 way between 210 and the next hash mark.

It wasn't doing this yesterday on the way home, but I wasn't driving 50mph or less. So I need to take it out on the highway to see how it performs.

I'm really starting to think I just created the same issue with my 99 as I have on the 98.

[XJ4IV]

the missing issue MIGHT have leaked some of that overflow over to your spark plugs or "dizzy" as they call it on the west coast LOL... that happens to mine whenever I wash down the engine bay...as for the running a little hotter... take your advice replace the cap
used cars dont have history reports also check that the 99 fan is blowing the same as the 98 fan...at idle... I found this to be the issue with my old mechanical fan.

[Mudderoy]

the missing issue MIGHT have leaked some of that overflow over to your spark plugs or "dizzy" as they call it on the west coast LOL... that happens to mine whenever I wash down the engine bay...as for the running a little hotter... take your advice replace the cap
used cars dont have history reports also check that the 99 fan is blowing the same as the 98 fan...at idle... I found this to be the issue with my old mechanical fan.

I'm sure it isn't since the 98 has a HD Grand Cherokee clutch.

[bluedragon436]

wow... that is some really strange issues going on all at once like that...

[Mudderoy]

wow... that is some really strange issues going on all at once like that...

Well it looks like the belt was loose, but the alternator still shouldn't act like that. I tightened it yesterday and measured it with a belt tightening gauge I bought. I can run it with A/C and lights now.

As far as the lower hose... I should have changed all the hoses when I got it. I suspected (and was told) that it was probably sitting in a driveway for a while prior to it being purchased by a dealer.

I just found it really strange that I could drive it so far and so fast without issues, however that is probably what stressed the lower hose to it's breaking point.

[bluedragon436]

Yeah I suspect the lower hose was just out of wear more than anything else... as far as the voltage drop and check gauges light.. I have had that happen to my XJ once, when I was on my way home and it started missing and such, so I pulled over, cut it off for a few minutes and then started it back up and continued on home with no issues since.. so maybe my belt just slipped a bit... I think it may have been raining that day... so guess I'll check my belt tightness when I get back home...

[Mudderoy]

Well I still find two things worrisome. What else is going to have a problem because it was sitting for an extended period of time and why is it running hot now.

I need to drive it around with the A/C off and see if it acts like it did before the over heating. The A/C was only working for less than 24 hours when it over heated.

[Mudderoy]

So what do you think guys? Do I waste the $55 for testing the exhaust gasses in the coolant kit, or just take the head off (check/mill) and change the head gasket?

http://youtu.be/DDbGdvyxITE

No water in the oil or in the valve cover area.

Runs hot after a while and on the highway. First hash past 210 today.

[4.3LXJ]

Blown head gasket Tony. Don't waste the money for a sniffer.

[Mudderoy]

Let's talk about a warped head.

Matt says I can put a straight edge on it and tell if it is warped.

I'm finding it hard to understand how that big hunk of metal can warp. I'm sure it does, but now I'm wondering how I can tell. I must be looking for the tiniest bit of a gap between the head surface and the straight edge.

Would I just run it down across the width of the head looking for a gap?

[4.3LXJ]

You turn the head so the machined surface is up and lay the straight edge lengthwise on it. Shine a light behind it. The light will show through the gap if there is one. But if it is warped a little, it can be surfaced and fixed. Just because you loose a head gasket does not mean the head is warped. I have lost gaskets twice on mine and still running the same heads now.

[Mudderoy]

You turn the head so the machined surface is up and lay the straight edge lengthwise on it. Shine a light behind it. The light will show through the gap if there is one. But if it is warped a little, it can be surfaced and fixed. Just because you loose a head gasket does not mean the head is warped. I have lost gaskets twice on mine and still running the same heads now.

Ok forgive my ask twice nature... So even in the event that occurred with this 99, overheating, the head may not have warped and just the head gasket could have blown?

[4.3LXJ]

That is correct. And heads can be resurfaced anyway. It is done all the time.

[Mudderoy]

That is correct. And heads can be resurfaced anyway. It is done all the time.

If it is warped would I need a special head gasket to make up for the material they removed during the milling process?

I have the FSM but I have not looked to see if there is a valve adjustment procedure. I never did this on my 327, a neighbor did it for me. I'm hoping it's just drop in and tighten down.

[bigjim350]

You would not need a special gasket. You compression would just be raised a bit. The rocker arms are pedestal mount so there is no adjustment on the valve lash. Just install the rocker arms and tighten to the torque specs, although i dont know the specs.

[4.3LXJ]

:thumbsup:

[Mudderoy]

You would not need a special gasket. You compression would just be raised a bit. The rocker arms are pedestal mount so there is no adjustment on the valve lash. Just install the rocker arms and tighten to the torque specs, although i dont know the specs.

Wow other than taking all the crap off to get to the head and putting it all back on this sounds pretty simple.

[Mudderoy]

Matt was telling me there is a 50/50 chance that when you take the head off and put it back on (correct me if I'm mis-stating it Matt) that the bottom end of the motor will fail shortly afterwards.

I'm hoping he was talking about the Ford motor but I think he said it was a universal rule of thumb.

Has anyone had this experience? I guess a 50/50 change is still good odds, but I need to be without vehicle issues for a while.

:cry:

[4.3LXJ]

I have only had this happen once on a Ford Motor. But before I took the heads off, the motor was so carboned up that two cylinders were almost full of it and the oil had never been changed. Not really typical. As I said, I have done it twice on my present engine. I don't think you have to worry.

[LizardRunner]

if it was true that pulling the heads means a bottom end rebuild will be due, I would have had to rebuild the bottom end of every racemotor I ever ran. The heads were pulled after every day of running but the bottom end was left alone. This was on one Ford cleveland 350, two chevy 350's, one pontiac 396. Decking the heads is not expensive engine building money wise and it is a great way to increase compression as long as you don't get valve interference with the piston. 2 one thousandths is a fairly normal decking (resurfacing).

If the engine was cooked (very overheated) it would be a good idea to replace the crank and cam bearings just to be safe and sure they wouldn't degrade after the head work.

[Mudderoy]

Here is a video that I did a day prior to the one of the open radiator cap.

http://youtu.be/xwba3iOHuac

[bigjim350]

Ive had it happen a few times. Not common on a low miles motor but can happen on a high mile motor. You have a motor with 100k+ miles on the rotating assembly, then you bump up the compression by decking the heads, it does add more stress on the bottom end.

[Mudderoy]

New 195 degree tstat
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0sh4g4iSPK0/Tf0IL8m8Q2I/AAAAAAAAA7I/4IBdZkhpHHw/s720/2011-06-18%25252012.10.12.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LR2Wn-3t-g0/Tf0IevYAYEI/AAAAAAAAA7Y/PDmS7wks61s/s720/2011-06-18%25252012.08.44.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-29_u7KXjdUM/Tf0IZlrma_I/AAAAAAAAA7U/IMGZcrYmsWk/s720/2011-06-18%25252012.09.02.jpg

Plugs cylinders 6 thru 1 (dirty side)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w3Tku_QtYPQ/Tf0K33ee-lI/AAAAAAAAA7w/rAQoaBMbGao/s720/2011-06-18%25252013.27.17.jpg

Plugs cylinder 6 thru 1 (clean side)
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HGwPF7fgjpI/Tf0IJ4HDVqI/AAAAAAAAA7E/ND93pfpCVH0/s720/2011-06-18%25252013.25.49.jpg

[Mudderoy]

So you recall the bubbles shortly after the lower hose blew...

http://youtu.be/DDbGdvyxITE

And here it is today...

http://youtu.be/0q9dyNLC6zg

What was changed? Well other than the things I listed above, just my wife driving it about 100 to 150 miles.

:sign0181:

OH! And some new BITCHING tires.

[4.3LXJ]

Congrats, I think. Better watch it though.

[Mudderoy]

Congrats, I think. Better watch it though.

Yeah I know, those bubbles worried me to. Matt was telling me I'd be surprised where the air can hide.