Motor oil warning!

[xj287]

Here's a link to a very useful thread on the Vermont Jeep Association website.


This is a serious heads up to jeep owners! In the last 2 years oil companys have changed the formulation of motor oil to meet the goverments new GF-4/SM requirements. In the process, a few key additives that are CRITICAL for longevity of flat tappet engines (like the 2.5, 4.0 and 258 in most of your jeeps) have been removed completely. The include such necisary friction reducers as zink and phospherus, and well as a few others.
Click link below to read more...

:link: (http://www.vtjeep.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2543)

[rguignard]

how do i find out if Royal Purple has it in it ?

[Mudderoy]

how do i find out if Royal Purple has it in it ?

First check their website, then e-mail them. 2nd let the rest of us know.

[rguignard]

First check their website, then e-mail them. 2nd let the rest of us know.

i just email them and i post up what they email me back :thumbsup:

[Mudderoy]

From the Royal Purple FAQ page...


Do your motor oils contain zinc and phosphorous?

Yes. All Royal Purple engine oils contain the zinc/phosphorous compound zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) and are suitable for both roller and flat tappet valve trains.

:link: (http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-motor-oil.html)

Mobile 1 Synthetic has Zinc and Phosphorus. The HIGH Mileage Mobile 1 Synth has higher levels of both. They are considered active anti-ware additives. :link: (http://www.mobiloil.com/Search/Search.aspx?site=mobil&output=xml_no_dtd&client=default_frontend&BCL=%2FUSA-English%2FMotorOil&la=en&km=mobiloil&show_km=y&as_q=inurl%3A%2FUSA-English%2FMotorOil&css=mobiloil&filter=0&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=UTF-8&lr=lang_en&getfields=description&q=zinc&go.x=0&go.y=0)

[4.3LXJ]

I use Valvoline Racing Oil and have had very good luck with it. It is designed to be burned and not leave deposits on spark plugs. I can say, it doesn't. It doesn't leave even a hint of mineral deposit no matter how long you leave the plugs in. This is a good thing for engines that have any blow by like any high milage engine does.

Here is the FAQ from their website concerning mineral additives.

Racing Oil
What are the benefits to using a racing oil versus a regular "street legal" oil?
The Valvoline VR1 Racing & "Not Street Legal" Racing Oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include less detergents than regular conventional motor oils.
What is zinc?
The anti-wear additive simply referred to as "zinc" by most car enthusiasts is actually short for Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP. Its primary role is to prevent metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Despite being referred to as "zinc," this additive actually contains zinc and phosphorus, with phosphorus performing the anti-wear function.
Why have the zinc/phosphorus levels in motor oil changed?
With ever increasing limits on emissions, automobile manufacturers have tightened emission control systems on newer vehicles. This is one of several factors considered when the American Petroleum Institute (API) sets standards for motor oil. The current API standard is "SM" which replaced the previous "SL" classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle's emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current motor oil.
What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?
Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in "SM" motor oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern motor oil is not adequate to protect older engines.
What solutions does Valvoline offer to the zinc issue?
Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue:
Valvoline VR1: Contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40, and straight 60.
Longer-Lasting Zinc/Phosphorus: Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the motor oil where it protects the engine instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car motor oils including SynPower -- the only synthetic offering this additive.
Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" oil?
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13% of Zinc and .12% of Phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14% of Zinc and .13% of Phosphorus.
Can I use an additive to boost the zinc level?
You can use an additive to increase the zinc level. However, check with your motor oil manufacturer to ensure the additive is compatible with your motor oil.
Is VR1 a conventional oil, a synthetic or a blend?
Valvoline VR1 is a conventional, non-synthetic racing oil.

[4.3LXJ]

I spent some time in the Valvoline web site. Both the High Milage and Racing oils in natural and synthetic have mineral additives.

[Mudderoy]

Motor Oil police! Sir please drop your oil plug, we have to check you.

[xj287]

I'd be relucatant to use any but rottella, scince it's know to have higher levals of what our engines need anyway. The idea of newer motor oils being "backwards compatable" is at best laughable! My suggestion would be to spend lest time surfing the web and more time talking to people that work on engines for a living.

Just tryin' to help.

[Mudderoy]

I'd be relucatant to use any but rottella, scince it's know to have higher levals of what our engines need anyway. The idea of newer motor oils being "backwards compatable" is at best laughable! My suggestion would be to spend lest time surfing the web and more time talking to people that work on engines for a living.

Just tryin' to help.

When I was in my 20's and rebuilding small block V8's (I kept breaking them!) I may have had access to a engine builder, you know the shop I took the block and heads to. But now, well I'd be hard pressed to find someone to talk to and frankly even if I did I'd feel funny just walking up not intending the BUY any service and say "Hey! Let me ask you sumpthin!" :rotfl2:

So I hear what you are saying but you have to keep in mind that some, maybe most of us are just trying to figure this stuff out and using the Internet to increase our odds of doing so. I mean the best case would be to have a knowledgeable engine builder here on the site to share information with us, and maybe that will happen eventually.

[4.3LXJ]

When I perused Valvoline's site, they were quick to address the issue of mineral additives on the two oils I mentioned. But all others, they did not even address it. I am guessing that it is an issue. Modern engines have gotten away from flat tappets. My 93 4.3 Chevy for instance has roller tappets in it. And that is not all that modern.

[GT MOTORSPORTS]

Tony Bischoff of BSE has been building my engines for a long time * 8 years. I have asked about oils for race engines only. He recomends Royal Purple. The first engine I had build from him was a 406 flat tappet engine. I will have to ask him about regular engines. In our 421 in our dirt modified we run royal purple,its a full roller though but Ill ask him the next time I see him. Which should be soon as drag racing is about to start.

[xj287]

Royal Purple is an excelent product as are most synthetics and racing oils. My only complaint there would be price. If you look closely at most high end oils the API label read SM/CF oils with this dual rating are fine for older flat tappet engines.

It isn't only older domestic cars that are having problems with the newer SM rated oils though, audi/vw, BMW, hyundia toyota and honda have all changed thier oil requirements acordingly. Hyunia has even gone so far as to recomend 15w40 CJ-4 HD diesle oils in thier 2.7 litre V6. Honda and toyota are recomending SM/CF synthetics specicly for thier cars. Subaru is also having tons of problems with the new oils (who hasn't heard a knocking 2.5?) they haven't adjusted thier oil requirements yet though.

[xj287]

When I was in my 20's and rebuilding small block V8's (I kept breaking them!) I may have had access to a engine builder, you know the shop I took the block and heads to. But now, well I'd be hard pressed to find someone to talk to and frankly even if I did I'd feel funny just walking up not intending the BUY any service and say "Hey! Let me ask you sumpthin!" :rotfl2:

So I hear what you are saying but you have to keep in mind that some, maybe most of us are just trying to figure this stuff out and using the Internet to increase our odds of doing so. I mean the best case would be to have a knowledgeable engine builder here on the site to share information with us, and maybe that will happen eventually.

I will be the first to admit I'm new to the internet and having trouble adjusting to the "google generation", but if 23 years in the car buisness have tought me any thing, it's that the only dumb question is the one not asked.:)

[rguignard]

well i just got back a email from royal purple and this is what they say and im going to have to beleve them so to each there own but i will be using there oil in my jeep :thumbsup:



Good Morning Mr. Guignard,

What you have read and/or heard about the zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP, the industry standard anti-wear additive) content of motor oils is not completely accurate. The API SM/ILSAC GF-4 motor oil ratings that became effective in ~2004 required a reduction in the maximum allowable amount of phosphorus in an engine oil. This is a de facto restriction on ZDDP anti-wear additive. There is no elimination of this additive, but a reduction of 20% – 35% in 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30 multi-viscosity motor oils. This restriction was introduced under the premise that phosphorus content in motor oil directly affected the useful life of catalytic converters, and OEM’s are now required to warranty their vehicle’s emission system separately from the power train. Since great majority of automobiles produced in the past decade are equipped with roller cam followers (tappets), the OEM’s were not that concerned with flat tappet wear. API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils are marginal for stock flat tappet cams, at best. If an engine uses a ‘larger’, more aggressive flat tappet camshaft and stiffer valve springs, premature cam and lifter wear is likely.

We at Royal Purple have chosen to hold most of our API rated oils back to API SL/ILSAC GF-3 precisely because of the potential for increased engine wear. Furthermore, in a properly functioning engine, oil consumption is minimal and highly unlikely to prematurely degrade the catalytic converter. For stock build valve trains in the Jeep 4-cylinder and I-6 engines, our 10W-30 (API SL) would work very well. If the camshaft and lifters have been replaced with a more aggressive profile and stiffer valve springs, our 10W-40 would be an outstanding choice (more robust formulation with higher ZDDP content).

One thing to note, though, is that the biggest advantage of using Royal Purple oils is our Synerlec additive. Synerlec creates a high lubricant film strength and thickness, regardless of viscosity. This further reduces the chances of metal-to-metal contact in the engine (reducing wear), increases piston ring seal (more efficient operation), and greatly reduces friction (lowering operating temperatures). All of this contributes to a more allow your engine to run cooler and more efficiently, with less wear, and increases the life of your engine. Another benefit is the increased resistance to oxidation, thereby increasing the life of the oil, and therefore allowing longer oil change intervals.


- Royal Purple SAE 10W-30 (part #01130, quart bottle)
- Royal Purple SAE 10W-40 (part #01140, quart bottle)

Thank you for inquiring about Royal Purple. If you have any further questions, please let us know.


Best Regards,

Christopher Barker
Tech Services
Royal Purple, Inc.
1 Royal Purple Ln.
Porter, TX 77365
281-354-8600

[Mudderoy]

I will be the first to admit I'm new to the internet and having trouble adjusting to the "google generation", but if 23 years in the car buisness have tought me any thing, it's that the only dumb question is the one not asked.:)

That is the primary goal of this site, no dumb questions. :thumbsup:

[rguignard]

I will be the first to admit I'm new to the internet and having trouble adjusting to the "google generation", but if 23 years in the car buisness have tought me any thing, it's that the only dumb question is the one not asked.:)

i know what you mean been in it for 21 years at least some part of it :thumbsup:

[W.O.R.P.Offroad]

Royal Purple is an excelent product as are most synthetics and racing oils. My only complaint there would be price. If you look closely at most high end oils the API label read SM/CF oils with this dual rating are fine for older flat tappet engines.

It isn't only older domestic cars that are having problems with the newer SM rated oils though, audi/vw, BMW, hyundia toyota and honda have all changed thier oil requirements acordingly. Hyunia has even gone so far as to recomend 15w40 CJ-4 HD diesle oils in thier 2.7 litre V6. Honda and toyota are recomending SM/CF synthetics specicly for thier cars. Subaru is also having tons of problems with the new oils (who hasn't heard a knocking 2.5?) they haven't adjusted thier oil requirements yet though.

im glad to have read this. we just got my wife a 01 hyundia santa fe and it has this engine. i am gettin ready to change the oil in it for the first time since we had it.

[whowey]

If you guys are truly interested in what is in your oils..

Bob is the Oil Guy's forums contain a LOAD of oil analysis and chemistry stuff.

Things to be careful of though. When you talk about different viscosities or even differing products lines from the same manufacturer the oils can vary wildly.

Valvoline racing oils are far different creatures than the regular white bottles on the shelf of your local parts store. Even the Max Life line of oils is woefully short on the Zinc and Phosphorous needed for flat tappet cams.

Normally.. if you look at a manufacturers Hi-Mileage line or their racing line you are going to see a higher level of the needed additives.

When you are talking about a boutique manufacturer like RP, the same caution applies... RP's XPR line continues to be heavy in Zn and Ph.. but the formulations on their regular oils has had those additives cut back.

Shell issued an internal memo in 2009 stating that Rotella would be reformulated in light of the API-SM rating and the upcoming environmental restrictions on diesel engines. But they never released a timetable or exactly what that entailed. (First time being married to a Shell employee ever paid off)

If you guys have any lubricant questions.. feel free to shoot.

[xj287]

I haven't yet heard of too many changes to the formulation of Rotella T, although I have learned that nothing stays the same forever. Diesle grade oils have always tended to stay alittle more consistant in thier formulation. I try to keep on top of whats going on in the industy as much as possible to keep my customers well informed. Supposedly the new "clean diesle" formula being introduced by SenPeCo this year will have double the ZPPD leval of the current CJ-4 rated oils. When that becomes availible I'll be switching both of my shops of to that.:thumbsup:

[xjgilley]

the funny thnig is i run 15-40 and a bottle of Lucas oil stabilizer in every one if my jeeps i run rotella t and i have not had a bit of problems out of any of them even my 300hp 4.0 i ran 15-40 when i tore it down for a inspection of parts all bearing were fine i did not pull the valve train apart but i had no noises from it

[prcjeep]

Post Moved

[Mudderoy]

Anyone know the cheapest place to get Royal Purple? I want to finally make the switch. Anyone ever found a great deal for it?
I know of these prices which are probably going to be the cheapest the cheapest..
Walmart(Cutten and 1960) ~8.48
O'reilly's(Schroeder and 249) ~8.99

I get mine at Wal-Mart. It has a different name on it thought, it's called Mobile 1, and it isn't purple. More of an oil color. :confused:

[Audio222]

The oil is only as good as the filter. I have been searching for the best filter and could some opinions on which one is the best. Any information would help!!

[Mudderoy]

The oil is only as good as the filter. I have been searching for the best filter and could some opinions on which one is the best. Any information would help!!

I've been using these, that I pick up from Advanced Auto...

http://xjtalk.com/images/special/purolatoroilfilters.jpg

http://xjtalk.com/images/special/purolatoroilfilters1.jpg

I'm using the larger of the two currently.

[TeXJ]

I like the Wix filters.

[XJ4IV]

I spent some time in the Valvoline web site. Both the High Milage and Racing oils in natural and synthetic have mineral additives.

Can VR1 be purchased at any auto parts stores. and also what is the cost of the VR1 per quart over the Rotella T HD?

[4.3LXJ]

I have seen the VR1 at the local parts stores. However I have not compared the prices. I am kind of brand loyal to the racing oil. However I have and would use Rotella also.

[xj4life2]

We use Wix filters only as for the oil..... I don't have that much time to go into it but I will say its all about the same except when you get into the Syn. and blends

[HokieAirman]

Any words on Castrol Syntec (full synthetic, black bottle)? I used that on my '95 back before 2006 and had almost 300,000 miles on it before I gave her to my brother.

[Horsehide]

My XJ had a Motorcraft filter and some unknown oil in it when I got it.
I installed a Wix 51515 oversized filter and switched to Rotella T6 5W40.
The Jeep sounds a lot happier and shifts smoother. I also had no issue starting it up at -13 the other morning.
I plan on replacing the filter every 1000 miles or so for a few times, just in case the T6 disloged a lot of crud.

[LizardRunner]

Valvoline VR1, Royal Purple, Castrol High mileage, all have enough of the additives we crave. If you want to check, read the can/bottle, the manufacturers are required by law to list these additives. I'll try and remember to do a write up on what to look for. If in doubt, or the oil is a little older, you can always add more additives (lucas oil, MMO,and probably even the new STP product). I use Castrol Syntec for VTwins in my motorcycle (20-50) but it has been built to the hilt and puts out over 100 hp to the rear wheel. Da Lizard gets either RP or CHM and either a Wix or a Purolator filter every 15k. FRAM filters are really just highly touted junk, I wouldn't use them, K&N oil filters are about the same, check the microns they filter too, that tells the good filter from the junk filters.

Oil people tell you to change at 3k because they want your money, not to save your vehicle. Oil molecules are square when new, only turning into nice round ball bearing looking molecules after around 6k, the additives in any oil are going to break down around 8k-12k so about there, add some more additives, change the filter and roll on. Bob the Oil guy has a wonderful site with more information on it than most of us want to adsorb. I have been racing in one form or another since 1966, I still stick with what my mechanics told me to do to my street bikes, cars. I have never worn out a street vehicle's engine. street rods, yes but then when you go racing with the same vehicle you drive the wheels off of, you have to expect that to happen. I have had full roller engines, including two with roller cranks, cams and dry sumps. I used the same stuff in them I use in Da Lizard.

[TeXJ]

+423q45 on Fram filters sucking them and STP

I love me some WIX filters

[88AMCOMANCHE]

Good to know......I get a discount on Mobil 1

[Jeepster19]

I use the factory M-90 mopar filter with royal purple.Should I be using a different brand filter that offers better filtriation with a anti-drain back valve?:confused:

[Weldmen]

Wix is the only oil filter I use in all my rides.

[907_jeep]

so long story short royal purple ftw?? and think has made me think about what motor oil to use in my next oil change..if it works the way it says it does then the price is well worst the price.. any feed about correcting me or further disscusion would be greatly apricated due to the fact that i love my jeep and would love to have it for a awhile

[default83]

ive heard from a shop instructor, oil is oil, get the cheapest one and run it, it will be the same.

not my words, but i ran whatever i could afford in my eclipse 4 banger and got almost 300k on it, it still runs but i just dont drive it.

i have ran every kind of oil you can think of, even in desperate moments the oil thats only approved for lawn mowers lol and every vehicle ive ever owned went over 250k easily.

so if you think about it, after about 250-300k its about time for a rebuild anyway, so does it really matter what kind of oil you use if it gets you that far? just my thoughts.

and as far as the comment about every 3k being wrong, i TOTALLY agree with that, i dont change my oil but every 6-9k depending on if im being lazy or not. and same results.

[PolarXJ]

Man, after ready some of bob's website, I'm thinking of switching to synethic. I've started using lucas oil additive the last few year. Have notice a reduction in engine noise while using it.

[pvt.tadpolxj]

This is my first reply to this thread. And I have to say for everybody's good.. After a lot of oil testing in my own 91XJ.. and reading everything i could. I have found that the Valvoline VR1 racing oil's have to be the best oil's for these high mileage flat tappet motor's... Just a few month's ago I thought I was going to lose my motor. I addded a bottle of the ZINC & Phosphorus suppliment from Rislone. And that by itself has saved my motor.. Now I am adding A bottle of Valvoline VR1 to my oil whenever I think it need's it, and it is running great and it is going to be running for a very long time...:patriot:

[TeXJ]

This is my first reply to this thread. And I have to say for everybody's good.. After a lot of oil testing in my own 91XJ.. and reading everything i could. I have found that the Valvoline VR1 racing oil's have to be the best oil's for these high mileage flat tappet motor's... Just a few month's ago I thought I was going to lose my motor. I addded a bottle of the ZINC & Phosphorus suppliment from Rislone. And that by itself has saved my motor.. Now I am adding A bottle of Valvoline VR1 to my oil whenever I think it need's it, and it is running great and it is going to be running for a very long time...:patriot:

not sounding like a jerk here just asking, why does that work..... and go!

[88AMCOMANCHE]

I change oil for a living. In my opinion, not saying this is correct...but in My opinion....I feel it does just as good.....to use Cheap oil and change your oil every 1000 to 1500 as it does to spend $7 a bottle on the "good" stuff and chenge it every 3k . And its also my opinion...that the "standard guideline of milage" should NOT be every 3000 miles. I personally think it should be changed Atleast every 1000 miles,atleast. But i know thats not very practical. ...2nd way to look at it then ...... lets say at roughly 1500 miles you look and see how clean the oil is after 1500 miles....and would it be an Improvement to the life of the engine to give it some clean "cheap" oil to replace all that dirty oil ....more than likely. But its hard because everyone has slightly different views on whats the best method & products. But this is just a few of my opinions~

[pvt.tadpolxj]

I agree with 88commanche... Depending on your ability to buy oil and filter's. one should change these as required on mileage and engine performance. I do not ever change all of my oil at one time. I just empty out a quart or two when I feel like it and change the filter at least every 6,000 mi...But the oil I use is the Valvoline VR1 racing street legal oil...These VR1 oil's are very high in ZDDP suppliment. ZDDP is not a oil treatment like STP or 710... it used to be a very important part of most oil's you could by in all auto part's store's. But the EPA over the year's has made strict regulation's to the oil companie's because of the growing concern;s about emission's and air polution.. But Valvoline VR1 racing street legal oil's are still high in ZDDP which is a must for any jeep motor's dating below 1997...I can change my oil filter every 6,000 mi.. because i use a very good one.. The FRAM TOUGH GAURD....:patriot:

[Jarlaxle]

I change oil for a living. In my opinion, not saying this is correct...but in My opinion....I feel it does just as good.....to use Cheap oil and change your oil every 1000 to 1500 as it does to spend $7 a bottle on the "good" stuff and chenge it every 3k . And its also my opinion...that the "standard guideline of milage" should NOT be every 3000 miles. I personally think it should be changed Atleast every 1000 miles,atleast. But i know thats not very practical. ...2nd way to look at it then ...... lets say at roughly 1500 miles you look and see how clean the oil is after 1500 miles....and would it be an Improvement to the life of the engine to give it some clean "cheap" oil to replace all that dirty oil ....more than likely. But its hard because everyone has slightly different views on whats the best method & products. But this is just a few of my opinions~

The appearance of oil means NOTHING. Offhand, I have seen oil that was BLACK after 100 miles. FWIW, the oil in my LT1 Caprice is still amber with 5000 miles. It's Wal-Mart's cheap Super Tech 5W-30 and a ST filter.

Speaking of which: last one I checked, the $2 Super Tech filter is a $8 Purolator.

[TeXJ]

Wix filter ftw!

[OGCollard]

If anyone wants to know here is the response from shell. I asked: Do your high mileage motor oils contain zinc and phosphorous that would be good for flat tappet engines?

They responded: If you are seeking higher zinc and phosphorous contents you may have to look to a racing oil. We have a product that is called Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil and is available in SAE 25W-50. It has approximately 1800-2000 ppm of zinc additive for extra wear protection. Other engine oils with comparable anti wear protection would include Shell Rotella T 15W-40.
The zinc and phosphorous levels were recently reduced (from the API SL levels) as there has been concern that the oil that makes its way in to the combustion zone of your engine, carrying these anti-wear metals was burning and poisoning the catalyst in the catalytic converters.
Should you desire to speak with a technical representative to discuss this issue in more detail please call Pennzoil-Quaker State Technical Information at 1-800-237-8645, option 32.


Dont know if this helps but guess I wont use Pennzoil high mileage in my jeep anymore.

[prerunner1982]

Rotella T is what I use.

[OGCollard]

Not to be selfish but I read somewhere that this issue was more important to Jeeps 97 and older....do I need to worry about it with my 2000 Cherokee 4.0?

[prerunner1982]

as far as I know they use the same flat tappets that the earlier 4.0 liter does... could be wrong.

[4.3LXJ]

They do use the same tappets. Any old school engine like the 4.0, or my Chevy 350 and even my Subaru engines have this issue. After reading the above post from a Shell guy, I was surprised to hear that the cats are fouled by those metals. Mine has not been. I have also had an oil rep from Valvoline tell me that the new formulation was due to most engines using roller cams now. But they again, they put these additives in most of their oil and have the highest amount of them available in their racing oil, which I highly recommend

[Rocco83]

I've used Shell Rotella T5 in all the Jeeps I've owned and have had no problems. Worked for me so far so I'm not changing.

Also use Wix oversized filters and only change my oil every 7500-8k miles.