What religion are you?

[TeXJ]

and GO......

[Mudderoy]

Christen. Church of Christ for years. My wife is Baptist so we go to a Baptist church. My two girls (16 and 14) are being baptized tomorrow.

[TeXJ]

Im LDS and went to Portugal for 2 years on a mission.

[firehawk]

I gave up on the God thing several years ago. From what I have experienced there is nothing to it except a a "promise" of a cool place to go when you die.:cool: I think religion is a form of mind control.

I could go on and on about my "religious" experiences....but I won't.:mad0090:

[BlueXJ]

Always considered this a taboo subject for a Jeep forum so no answer from me.

[xj4life2]

Christian we go to Ridge Pres. my kids go to "CMA" Christian Missionary Alliance we used to go there, just got to big . Both are very involved in the Church of thier own free will we never pushed them.God just kinda took over in thier lives which is very cool.

[lil_red_wagon]

im on the same level as firehawk. to their own. i dont push my beliefs on anyone as i expect the same. its kinda odd though. my wifes father is a preacher. he is Pentecostal.

[Melissa]

I was born and raised Catholic, but I am on the same page also as firehawk

[Mudderoy]

I'm a pretty logical, prove it to me kind of guy, but when it comes to God, I believe. I've had several, subtle, things happen in my life that makes me believe there is something outside this world acting on my life.

Nothing that I could prove, or would even try to argue the point with anyone, but it's enough for me.

Still I believe that God created us in his own image, and that "IMAGE" doesn't include blindly following, or believing in something. I think that means we have the ability to think, reason, and choose for ourselves.

I have a big problem with anyone that refuses to listen to arguments that don't mess with their belief system. Like evolution. Nothing in the Bible says that evolution didn't happen.

[alwaysxj]

i was born into the LDS religon but im not supporting at this time. and im from utah so everyone is LDS so im the out law here.

[Melissa]

i was born into the LDS religon but im not supporting at this time. and im from utah so everyone is LDS so im the out law here.

What is LDS??

[xj4life2]

What is LDS??

LDS stands for Later Day Saints, its from the Morman religon

[Melissa]

LDS stands for Later Day Saints, its from the Morman religon

Ahhhhhh got it, thanks payless

[TeXJ]

I'm a pretty logical, prove it to me kind of guy, but when it comes to God, I believe. I've had several, subtle, things happen in my life that makes me believe there is something outside this world acting on my life.

Nothing that I could prove, or would even try to argue the point with anyone, but it's enough for me.

Still I believe that God created us in his own image, and that "IMAGE" doesn't include blindly following, or believing in something. I think that means we have the ability to think, reason, and choose for ourselves.

I have a big problem with anyone that refuses to listen to arguments that don't mess with their belief system. Like evolution. Nothing in the Bible says that evolution didn't happen.

totally agree :thumbsup:

[tbone]

I'm a Baptist but not active.

[firehawk]

I was brought up going to church, and actually enjoyed summer Bible school at our church, but....

In my adult life I have had things happen to me AND my family that began to make me question what I had been taught. A perfect example is the story of Job. Job got caught in the middle of a pissing contest between God and satan. Satan said he (Job) will deny you, God said no he won't. So God told satan, you can do ANYTHING to him EXCEPT kill him. Now, as a father what would happen to me if I told someone that about MY son/daughter?:eek: I'd be locked up! But the religious give God a pass on that one. Granted God "rewarded" Job after everything... basicly giving him a BUNCH of new stuff, but NOWHERE does it say/show God had ANY remorse for putting Job thru all that. Some "father" huh?:mad0090: Maybe Job got a really neat cool place to go when he died?

I've been thru ALOT in the past few years, and was VERY angry at God! I began to soften my anger, and simply pray for assistance in helping me to deal with it. NOT for Him to solve it, just help me. After 5 years of praying I received NOTHING, zip zero nadda. So, as I said in my first post, I gave up on the God thing. I found there is nothing to it except a "promise" of a cool place to live IF you toe the mark. Apparently He get's his kicks playing games with your life.

Damn, I said I wasn't going to go into my religious experiences...but there 'ya go. Why I am like I am.:D

[TeXJ]

these past few years have been really tough for me. It really makes you wonder if he is there, just playing games with you or what?! To me there are parts of the bible that have been taken away, twisted, and well, basically not what it originally started out to say. However, there are things that I know, and those basic beliefs are what bring me through the hard times. If we are to believe that this time on earth is a test to see if we can over come the "flesh" and be better than what Satan wants us to be than we are progressing.

On a side note, I really enjoy talking about religion and people's experiences. I also know that arguing will get you now where.

[jfxj67]

No Religion, but very spiritual!

:rolleye0012:

[Mudderoy]

I was brought up going to church, and actually enjoyed summer Bible school at our church, but....

In my adult life I have had things happen to me AND my family that began to make me question what I had been taught. A perfect example is the story of Job. Job got caught in the middle of a pissing contest between God and satan. Satan said he (Job) will deny you, God said no he won't. So God told satan, you can do ANYTHING to him EXCEPT kill him. Now, as a father what would happen to me if I told someone that about MY son/daughter?:eek: I'd be locked up! But the religious give God a pass on that one. Granted God "rewarded" Job after everything... basicly giving him a BUNCH of new stuff, but NOWHERE does it say/show God had ANY remorse for putting Job thru all that. Some "father" huh?:mad0090: Maybe Job got a really neat cool place to go when he died?

I've been thru ALOT in the past few years, and was VERY angry at God! I began to soften my anger, and simply pray for assistance in helping me to deal with it. NOT for Him to solve it, just help me. After 5 years of praying I received NOTHING, zip zero nadda. So, as I said in my first post, I gave up on the God thing. I found there is nothing to it except a "promise" of a cool place to live IF you toe the mark. Apparently He get's his kicks playing games with your life.

Damn, I said I wasn't going to go into my religious experiences...but there 'ya go. Why I am like I am.:D

Hey I'm glad you did! It reminds me of something that happened to me. My ex-wife and I split up. We had two very young boys that did, and do, mean the world to me. I was really torn up not being able to be there with them day to day to raise and enjoy them. A very good friend of mine was trying to help me and he brought up the story of Job. I listened and felt better. Later I got the Bible out and read about Job.

I couldn't believe that God allowed this to happen, but hey he's God, right? He knows better than me, or Job. I was fine until I read that Job's children (and wife I think) were all killed, but later he got a new wife and had more kids. WHAT THE HELL!?!?!?! I didn't want NEW kids! I certainly didn't want to go through the additional grief of losing them!

Here's what happened though. I met a beautiful woman, we had 2 beautiful girls, and we've been married for 17 years. Seldom to we have a fight and most of the time we're like two kids laughing and playing together.

I never knew just how wonderful a relationship could really be. And the really amazing thing is, and we both remind each other about this all the time, is she had a horrible relationship as well. Her's a little different from mine. We both agree that if we hadn't have gone through all that we did we wouldn't appreciate each other as much.

When bad things happen in life people will say "It's OK, something better will come along/happen." When my wife said this to me when I was out of work some years back, I told her that someone was saying that in the Nazi camps, and perhaps even as they were being marched to the ovens. So no that isn't always true. That's that logical, technical part I was speaking of before.

I cannot believe when horrible horrible things happen. I cannot understand why a God that loves us would allow such a thing. I certainly would not allow my 3 year old child to play in the street!

The way I handle this inconsistencies is this. God must know something we don't. He must know that the suffering has a purpose and that in the big scheme of things our life here is only a minor part of our true life.

Besides I don't think God does anything to us, I really don't think he interferes. I think that would go against the whole free will concept.

I find that really funny that you would bring up Job. I really didn't see ANYTHING positive or good about that story, and I still think it's funny that my friend used it to make me feel better.

[4.3LXJ]

I find that really funny that you would bring up Job. I really didn't see ANYTHING positive or good about that story, and I still think it's funny that my friend used it to make me feel better.

I wasn't going to get involved in this because it generally just breads arguments. But that doesn't seem to be happening.

This story of Job does have some positive things, as well as some good lessons and a few explanations that are valuable for us. It is a little tedious at times, but in the big picture it comes out OK.

First thing is that bad things happen to good people. We blame God for lots of things that are just not his fault.

Second, God is not a candy man that gives you everything just because you ask for it. You get what you need.

Third, God does it all in his good time. We want it now. However patience is not one of our virtues. Remember, he works out everything for everyone, even non believers. Now that is a juggling act.

Fourth. When bad things do happen, it gives us time to reflect and make adjustments. It keeps us from getting spoiled and uncaring.

Hope this helps.

[firehawk]

I wasn't going to get involved in this because it generally just breads arguments. But that doesn't seem to be happening.

This story of Job does have some positive things, as well as some good lessons and a few explanations that are valuable for us. It is a little tedious at times, but in the big picture it comes out OK.

First thing is that bad things happen to good people. We blame God for lots of things that are just not his fault.

Second, God is not a candy man that gives you everything just because you ask for it. You get what you need.

Third, God does it all in his good time. We want it now. However patience is not one of our virtues. Remember, he works out everything for everyone, even non believers. Now that is a juggling act.

Fourth. When bad things do happen, it gives us time to reflect and make adjustments. It keeps us from getting spoiled and uncaring.

Hope this helps.

No, I assure everyone starting an argument is not what I want, and I respect all beliefs/opinions. I guess I just removed my "rose colored" glasses and saw what God is, NOT what I was taught.

As far as Job is concerned, his family was destroyed... taken from him. For what end, so God could win an argument?:stars: It shows me human life is worthless to Him, we are just playthings for His amusement. I just can't see how everything "worked out" in the end?

1. We can't "blame" God. If that is so, why do people thank Him? How can it not be both ways? Why should I thank Him for the food, when it was ME who went out and worked to earn the money to buy it in the first place? I'm expected to thank Him for all the "good" stuff, but hey.... "don't blame Me when things go wrong, and don't expect Me to be around when you need me"! Seem"s kinda like a copout to me.

2. I don't/didn't expect Him to solve my problems, just help me deal with them and move on. It does say, " ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find. And I'm not talking about fame/fortune, etc.... just to know He is there. Well I received nothing, and I found nothing. As I have argued with my wife LOT'S of times... there HAS to be a tangeible benefit to following God, or ANY "supreme being". I have not found any, and say it amounts to a promise of a neat place to live when you die, NOTHING else.

3. Not necessarly now, but within my lifetime would be nice. After that it would serve no purpose.

4. When bad things happen it can make us bitter and angry. Especially when we've been taught that God is a loving God that cares for us, and in a time of need He is nowhere to be found. And if He is there and we cannot sense it, again it serves no purpose.

I guess it comes down to, how many poor shmucks out there will go to hell because God is to high and mighty to come down to their level and simply let them know he's there. People followed Hitler with blind unfounded faith, look where they ended up.

[4.3LXJ]

I guess it comes down to, how many poor shmucks out there will go to hell because God is to high and mighty to come down to their level and simply let them know he's there. People followed Hitler with blind unfounded faith, look where they ended up.

He did come down. Remember Jesus? He became like us remember?

[firehawk]

I wasn't around 2000 years ago.:rolleyes:

Besides, I've seen IMO that the "seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive" part to be false so is there ANY part of the Bible that can be believed? Did he come down here, or is it just a good story that King James had put in there? Besides, He spoke to Saul, David, Moses, Joshua, et al, why not me/you, anyone today?

I know people that claim to have felt God's presence/guidance. I call them the lucky one's. The rest of us are just left to fend for ourselves. Also, if this is how He wants to treat me here on earth, WHY would I want to spend eternity with Him? Would he ignore me there too?

As you can see, I have MAJOR issues with "God".:mad0090:

[4.3LXJ]

As you can see, I have MAJOR issues with "God".:mad0090:

Yes, I can tell. All I can say is that I wasn't always one of the blessed ones as you put it. I had to get over some issues too. Tell you what. Spend some time in a Bible every day and see what happens. That is how I found Him.

[firehawk]

Yes, I can tell. All I can say is that I wasn't always one of the blessed ones as you put it. I had to get over some issues too. Tell you what. Spend some time in a Bible every day and see what happens. That is how I found Him.

Well after chasing after HIM for the better part of a decade, and finding nothing, I'm through. If/when He decides HE'S ready to "talk" to me, I guess He knows where to find me.:thumbsup:

[Mudderoy]

Well after chasing after HIM for the better part of a decade, and finding nothing, I'm through. If/when He decides HE'S ready to "talk" to me, I guess He knows where to find me.:thumbsup:

Hey I understand. It's like most things. No one can convince you, you need to do what you think is best. My wife and I had a big discussion about church the other day. She thinks that we should respect people more that volunteer for church duties. I disagree. I think everyone should be respected, until they do something that isn't respectable. No matter WHO they are.

Her way of thinking isn't bad, that's just her. The thing that scares me about that line of thought is how some people don't question, sometimes don't even think about what their religious leader(s) are telling them. Jim Jones comes to mind.

[4.3LXJ]

Hey I understand. It's like most things. No one can convince you, you need to do what you think is best. My wife and I had a big discussion about church the other day. She thinks that we should respect people more that volunteer for church duties. I disagree. I think everyone should be respected, until they do something that isn't respectable. No matter WHO they are.


I agree with you. It keeps people from thinking they are elite depending on position. It is called church politics.

[firehawk]

Anyone here read the book "The Shack"? THAT is what it would take for me to even consider accepting any of it again.

[dziula]

Hi i m catholic and i going to polish church from time to time .

[4.3LXJ]

Anyone here read the book "The Shack"? THAT is what it would take for me to even consider accepting any of it again.

No I have not. What is it about?

[firehawk]

No I have not. What is it about?

It is a fictional book about a man who's daughter was abducted and murdered. If I remember right she was never found, but evidence was found in this shack somewhere out in the sticks.

He was unable to deal with his grief, and returned to the shack years later and finds it was now a beautiful place with gardens, etc... He goes inside and finds this black woman cooking, and begins talking to her. He discovers "she" is God. She explains to him about life and it's problems. There are a couple of other "people there, one is Jesus, can't recall who the others were. He is shown things, and taken places around the shack, and actually is shown his daughter "on the other side" and is in fact ok. He is taken to the place where she was murdered to show him she is no longer there. All this helps him to work thru his grief. This is the Readers Digest Condensed Version.:rotfl2: I might have missed/forgot some things.

I won't go into the ending if you decide to read the book. I guess it is a good story, an example of what I have been saying. Would it be so hard for a God who claims to love us to "talk" to us? For some of us, I guess it is. What was taken from me BECAUSE of His refusal to "talk" to me, I can NEVER forgive.

[Mudderoy]

It is a fictional book about a man who's daughter was abducted and murdered. If I remember right she was never found, but evidence was found in this shack somewhere out in the sticks.

He was unable to deal with his grief, and returned to the shack years later and finds it was now a beautiful place with gardens, etc... He goes inside and finds this black woman cooking, and begins talking to her. He discovers "she" is God. She explains to him about life and it's problems. There are a couple of other "people there, one is Jesus, can't recall who the others were. He is shown things, and taken places around the shack, and actually is shown his daughter "on the other side" and is in fact ok. He is taken to the place where she was murdered to show him she is no longer there. All this helps him to work thru his grief. This is the Readers Digest Condensed Version.:rotfl2: I might have missed/forgot some things.

I won't go into the ending if you decide to read the book. I guess it is a good story, an example of what I have been saying. Would it be so hard for a God who claims to love us to "talk" to us? For some of us, I guess it is. What was taken from me BECAUSE of His refusal to "talk" to me, I can NEVER forgive.

Oh I think it would be wonderful to have a direct conversation with God, kind of boring for him though I suspect. :rotfl2:

It would be much simpler if it worked that way I guess, I mean God meeting with us every so often and reviewing our progress. Like at work. It would be good to know him directly instead of the various stories, or cultures that have writings that represent him. I guess this is why I had a hard time for years with people saying you should love God. I mean how do you love someone you don't even know. I've always thought that if you LOVED someone that you didn't know that was an infatuation.

I guess it was after the birth of my children that I started to get a better idea of how I could love God.

[firehawk]

Oh I think it would be wonderful to have a direct conversation with God, kind of boring for him though I suspect. :rotfl2:

It would be much simpler if it worked that way I guess, I mean God meeting with us every so often and reviewing our progress. Like at work. It would be good to know him directly instead of the various stories, or cultures that have writings that represent him. I guess this is why I had a hard time for years with people saying you should love God. I mean how do you love someone you don't even know. I've always thought that if you LOVED someone that you didn't know that was an infatuation.

I guess it was after the birth of my children that I started to get a better idea of how I could love God.


But how can a human "love" someone/something that does not serve a purpose? Could you love your wife if she NEVER responded to you, if she was never there? Love is a two way street, you give it, and it is returned. God asks, no actually DEMANDS for you to worship/love Him, but get's away with doing nothing FOR you in return.

Honestly, can anyone "love" God when He does nothing for you, or is never there to comfort/help you? People will say, well...."God is there you just don't know it, or God is speaking to you, you just aren't listening." As a human, as we ALL are, if I/you can't sense someone's presence, or cannot "hear" them it does not matter, it's a pointless arguement.

In that case you might as well love/worship your XJ:rotfl2: at least it serves a purpose to you. It takes you where you want to go, etc... If you compare the two, God-XJ it would be like you buying the XJ, but never getting to see it, use it, but had to pay for it and someone preaching to you telling you how "good" it is.


I just don't get it.:stars: I'm happy for the one's who apparently do.:thumbsup:

[BlueXJ]

i do love my xj!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[firehawk]

me too!!!!

[BlueXJ]

i do love my xj!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


me too!!!!

Why do you love my XJ??????????????

[firehawk]

Why do you love my XJ??????????????

:rotfl2: Not YOUR'S My XJ!:rotfl2: I'm just "good friends" with your XJ. Guess I should have been more specific.:rolleyes:

[Mudderoy]

But how can a human "love" someone/something that does not serve a purpose? Could you love your wife if she NEVER responded to you, if she was never there? Love is a two way street, you give it, and it is returned. God asks, no actually DEMANDS for you to worship/love Him, but get's away with doing nothing FOR you in return.

Honestly, can anyone "love" God when He does nothing for you, or is never there to comfort/help you? People will say, well...."God is there you just don't know it, or God is speaking to you, you just aren't listening." As a human, as we ALL are, if I/you can't sense someone's presence, or cannot "hear" them it does not matter, it's a pointless argument.

In that case you might as well love/worship your XJ:rotfl2: at least it serves a purpose to you. It takes you where you want to go, etc... If you compare the two, God-XJ it would be like you buying the XJ, but never getting to see it, use it, but had to pay for it and someone preaching to you telling you how "good" it is.


I just don't get it.:stars: I'm happy for the one's who apparently do.:thumbsup:

Oh I thought it was obvious. Everything I mean everything around us God brought into existence. Even the things I do myself and sometimes define me are all things that are possible because of God. I would say my love is more of appreciation, not really out of knowing God. I like astronomy as well, and it is sheer jaw dropping awe that there are so many things in the universe. So big, so small and so far away. It is obvious that this universe wasn't made for me, or even the small number of people on this planet. I think as we know more and more about the universe we live in the more it will demand the existence is some over lying force, some incredible over seer, some God that is responsible for it all.

In fact it may be that God does speak with each and every one of us, only in a time frame that seems reasonable to him and incredible long, and in some cases unreasonable to us.

I suspect that some day we will know and understand the truth of it all. When we do it will be immensely easy to understand, and incredibly detailed at the same time. :D

[Mudderoy]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2010/01/500x_gods_control_buttons.jpg

[93gc40]

No relegion, But the JEEP takes me to see Gods work every weekend.

[Thomass]

I was born and raised and Baptiste as a catholic, However, I do really believe, I'll never go to church. Here in The Netherlands I have not so good experiences with the church as an institute. ( I only visit a church as an part of my culture nosiness)
I have been an member of the CMA (Cristian motor association)

[jugbutt]

My family and I go to Hillsboro Church of Chirst.
I really love seeing a Religion page on this site and now it s the best jeep site yet!!!:congrats:

[Mudderoy]

My family and I go to Hillsboro Church of Chirst.
I really love seeing a Religion page on this site and now it s the best jeep site yet!!!:congrats:

Well they always say stay away from politics and religion, but I've never listened to anyone. :D

I thought we were all more than mature enough to have decent respectful conversations (at least on the site) about both. :thumbsup:

[TeXJ]

I really enjoy talking about religion. Point counter point.... :D

[Ruinator]

Calvary Chapel... Christian. (Recovering Catholic):shocker:

[UKJeepThang]

No religion for me. 99% of all wars are caused by religion so in theory if there was no religion there would be no war.

Just my point of view.

[Ruinator]

No religion for me. 99% of all wars are caused by religion so in theory if there was no religion there would be no war.

Just my point of view.


uhh, except for the last 150 YEARS or so. :D

[LostSoul]

No religion for me. 99% of all wars are caused by religion so in theory if there was no religion there would be no war.

Just my point of view.

I agree with this 90% The human brain will just find other things to kill for.

I like this threads because this is were i find true friends/religious people are.

I was brainwashed lds growing up. That is what started me looking into other religions but I found out that they all have problems or
:allcrap:? (insert your favorite Scientology joke here) Im not saying religion is bad. I can go on all week about this so I wont and I have found out that this topic brings out the most close minded people. So you can show them the glove fits or dosent fit and the say what they was tough to say. So i given up.

I believe there is a higher Power, man or woman and that when we die we go to a better place or a so called hell. The only answer is when we die will find out.

[d0nt_h8]

..Y'know.... religion is such an incendiary topic.. I'm really glad people here are level-headed for the most part.. THANK YOU. I grew up LDS as well.. I also studied multiple religious texts as part of my Mission in Spain. I'm sure there are others here with more, but I have probably logged about 20 years worth of studies on the topic, and I have to say- I have given up organized religion completely.

My personal experience with organized religion tells me that it is a human-engineered mechanism for control which also acts as a social & financial contact system whose side-effects include teaching you the practice of judging people.

Having said that, spirituality is a part of my life. I truly believe that most of us can be good people without needing someone to tell us to do so.. I can also have peace of mind & a great feeling about myself without having to pay them 10% of my income.

IMHO Faith and confidence in one's self and one's own abilities to overcome obstacles and a love of family/friends is far more rewarding and produces a much greater desire to do good to others than someone standing in front of you can. :headshake:

It's almost like the 10 commandments for adults should be reduced to:
-Grow up.
-Think before you act.
-Don't be a jackass.
:smiley-laughing021:

[4.3LXJ]

It's almost like the 10 commandments for adults should be reduced to:
-Grow up.
-Think before you act.
-Don't be a jackass.
:smiley-laughing021:

I can say Amen to that

[LostSoul]

It's almost like the 10 commandments for adults should be reduced to:
-Grow up.
-Think before you act.
-Don't be a jackass.
:smiley-laughing021:

This is the Commandments for dummies book:smiley-laughing021:

[troys96xj]

Christian,Nazarene.

[4x4Dalton]

Born and raised Southern Baptist.

[drakan1908]

Bretheran.

[TeXJ]

Sisteran....

[BlueXJ]

Brian I can't find anything about a religion called "Bretheran" Help me out please.

[4.3LXJ]

Blue, some years back there was talk of the Church of the Bretheran merging with Methodists. Don't know if it ever happened.

[BlueXJ]

Thanks 4.3LXJ.

[drakan1908]

Brian I can't find anything about a religion called "Bretheran" Help me out please.

Here you go Mike, this can explain it better than I can:

Brethren, German Baptist religious group. They were popularly known as Dunkards, Dunkers, or Tunkers, from the German for "to dip," referring to their method of baptizing. The Brethren evolved from the Pietist movement in Germany. The first congregation was organized there in 1708 by Alexander Mack. Persecution drove them to America where, under Peter Becker, they settled (1719) in Germantown, Pa. From that and other settlements in Pennsylvania they spread westward and into Canada. The Brethren oppose war and advocate temperance, the simple life, plain dress, and "obedience to Christ rather than obedience to creeds and cults." The original group, at present the largest in the United States, is the Church of the Brethren (Conservative Dunkers); the local churches are united by an annual conference that elects a general board to supervise the national church program. From the Church of the Brethren there have been separations into the Seventh-Day Baptists, German Baptists (1728; see Beissel, Johann Conrad); Church of God (New Dunkards, 1848); Old German Baptist Brethren (1881); and the Brethren Church (Progressive Dunkers, 1882). The Brethren baptize by trine immersion, the candidate being immersed once for each member of the Trinity. They practice foot washing and the love feast.

[Jamie Lynn]

I was Christiansen as a methodist as a baby...but when my mom and step dad got married I attended a Seventh Day Adventist Church. When I would visit my Mam-Mam I would go with her to her church which was Catholic....now since I have grown up....I must confess I believe in God...but I also have lost some faith in him along the way...I consider myself more of an Agnostic then anything else.

[BlueXJ]

Here you go Mike, this can explain it better than I can:

Brethren, German Baptist religious group. They were popularly known as Dunkards, Dunkers, or Tunkers, from the German for "to dip," referring to their method of baptizing. The Brethren evolved from the Pietist movement in Germany. The first congregation was organized there in 1708 by Alexander Mack. Persecution drove them to America where, under Peter Becker, they settled (1719) in Germantown, Pa. From that and other settlements in Pennsylvania they spread westward and into Canada. The Brethren oppose war and advocate temperance, the simple life, plain dress, and "obedience to Christ rather than obedience to creeds and cults." The original group, at present the largest in the United States, is the Church of the Brethren (Conservative Dunkers); the local churches are united by an annual conference that elects a general board to supervise the national church program. From the Church of the Brethren there have been separations into the Seventh-Day Baptists, German Baptists (1728; see Beissel, Johann Conrad); Church of God (New Dunkards, 1848); Old German Baptist Brethren (1881); and the Brethren Church (Progressive Dunkers, 1882). The Brethren baptize by trine immersion, the candidate being immersed once for each member of the Trinity. They practice foot washing and the love feast.

Thanks Brian. that was quite helpful. Is the church still located predominantly in the Germantown area with small congregations in areas like yours in Virginia?

[drakan1908]

I don't know Mike. I haven't been in years, I have a few Aunts and Uncles that still go there but I haven't been since the wife and I got married. I never saw any German Baptist or Dunkard influence but then I've been going since I was small and probably wouldn't know what to look for. This was the church my Mom's family went to. My Dads family went to a small country church called Doe Run Christian church it had a congregation of about 30 on any given Sunday(depends on what the tobacco crop was doing). The Brethern church had a congregation of approx. 70 on any given Sunday. My favorite church was one my grandparents on my mothers side went to ,when they were not in Florida ,was outside Woodlawn Va. and the congregation was about 15 or so. They shared a minister with 3 other churches so he only came once a month. The rest of the Sundays, one of my aunts that lived in Woodlawn would play the organ, take requests for hymns and everybody would sing.

[dispensationalist]

All religions are systems of activities that are required to make one acceptable to God. The ONLY religion ever instituted by God was Judaism, and He's not doing that, at this time.

Christianity is NOT a religion, but rather, faith in the actions of another (our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ) on our behalf.

I am, therefore, a Bible-believing Christian.

[RADesignsProducts]

Go to a local one, River City Church. Basis is Jesus died to saved us, the Holy Bible is the truth, and it's upon us to go amongst the people to spread the news.
Looking to start a motorhead/gearhead outreach ministry in our area, say a prayer for me.

[hookedonxjs]

I'm a dislexic agnostic.

I'm not sure if there is a dog

[xj4life2]

Go to a local one, River City Church. Basis is Jesus died to saved us, the Holy Bible is the truth, and it's upon us to go amongst the people to spread the news.
Looking to start a motorhead/gearhead outreach ministry in our area, say a prayer for me.

Check out 4x4him.org , you might find people in your area to help you out with that. We will keep it in prayer for you and the club !!

[4.3LXJ]

I was going to say that too

[xj4life2]

I was going to say that too

Please do !!!

[4.3LXJ]

Please do !!!

I just did

[RADesignsProducts]

Check out 4x4him.org , you might find people in your area to help you out with that. We will keep it in prayer for you and the club !!

I'm checking it out. Thanks.

[XJXtian]

Hey ALL!

(Mudderoy-I swear I thought I'd been registered in here before, but upon trying to log in, i basically didn't exist...must be I usually just talk to you at clubxj (same nick) and on facebook (Patricia Bertolino Taylor)!!!


Anyway, I'm a Christian. My husband and I run an offroad club that is also a Christian Outreach. It's called Alpha/Omega Offroad and we're just over 2 years old. Several of us go to MOUNTAIN CHRISTIAN CHURCH in Joppa, MD. It's a non-denominational bible teaching church. I was saved on December 15th, 2003...and baptised November 16th, 2008 with my husband.

:o

[Mudderoy]

Hey ALL!

(Mudderoy-I swear I thought I'd been registered in here before, but upon trying to log in, i basically didn't exist...must be I usually just talk to you at clubxj (same nick) and on facebook (Patricia Bertolino Taylor)!!!


Anyway, I'm a Christian. My husband and I run an offroad club that is also a Christian Outreach. It's called Alpha/Omega Offroad and we're just over 2 years old. Several of us go to MOUNTAIN CHRISTIAN CHURCH in Joppa, MD. It's a non-denominational bible teaching church. I was saved on December 15th, 2003...and baptised November 16th, 2008 with my husband.

:o

That's weird I thought you did to. If you didn't change e-mail addresses I'll search for that and see what I can find.

Feel free to promote your club here, I'm pretty sure I already told you that but just in case. ;o)

:welcome:

[xj4life2]

Hey ALL!

(Mudderoy-I swear I thought I'd been registered in here before, but upon trying to log in, i basically didn't exist...must be I usually just talk to you at clubxj (same nick) and on facebook (Patricia Bertolino Taylor)!!!


Anyway, I'm a Christian. My husband and I run an offroad club that is also a Christian Outreach. It's called Alpha/Omega Offroad and we're just over 2 years old. Several of us go to MOUNTAIN CHRISTIAN CHURCH in Joppa, MD. It's a non-denominational bible teaching church. I was saved on December 15th, 2003...and baptised November 16th, 2008 with my husband.

:o

You might wanna check out 4x4him.org were a national Christian club , I'm one of the northern California chapter leaders. Congrates on your club and we'll be praying for it !!!
Mark

[XJXtian]

Hey THANKS Mark!!!

I actually have been to your site. I love what you and the other Christian clubs are doing!!! I'm a member at UCORA too. (my nic was XterraXtian before I wrecked my '05 Xterra) Haven't been over there in a while though. My friend Bill is a member of Kreation Krawlers in AZ and had me go to 4x4Him. And another club, HigherGround4x4 is great too. Too bad you guys are all over on the other side of the country!!!

We're trying to make our way out there to the Mesa, AZ area to see our friend. Can't wait to see that desert wheeling!!!

God bless!

[4.3LXJ]

I have to thank Blue for this one. But enjoy.

http://www.openmyeyeslord.net/UltimateFreedom.htm

[XJXtian]

:) that was awesome. :( made me cry!

[BrianXJ]

Born and raised Southern Baptist.

:dito:

[j&d Greens]

Well here will be my first post, I am a born again Christian, my wife is also. Before we met I can say I fell very far from were I am now. But through several events in my life God has become very real to me and I hope that it does not take the same thing for others. I believe that the bible spells things out very clearly. I can't see how anyone can go up into those Rocky Mountains doing anything and come back with out seeing His handy work all around. But I can understand the optimism. David

[Mudderoy]

Well here will be my first post, I am a born again Christian, my wife is also. Before we met I can say I fell very far from were I am now. But through several events in my life God has become very real to me and I hope that it does not take the same thing for others. I believe that the bible spells things out very clearly. I can't see how anyone can go up into those Rocky Mountains doing anything and come back with out seeing His handy work all around. But I can understand the optimism. David

Great first post. :welcome: to the site!

[LizardRunner]

I don't have a "religion" now before anyone thinks wrongly about this statement, please let me clarify. I do not believe there is a god, I know there is one, with out any doubt. This is why I say I do not have a religion, besides the fact that religions exist to control those who suscribe to what ever one they have chosen.

When was 15 I entered a Jesuit Seminary, my purpose was to become a biblical scholar. I did so. My parents were Christian to the moment of their death, but when I was growing up, we attended what ever church was near the Air base we were at. When I was seventeen, I was shown in no uncertain terms, that there is indeed a creator of all things, and that the creator does watch over us, listen to us, and the creator will intervien when we force the issue, I call the creator god or goddess, depending on the situation that I need help with. This does not make me a pagan, just someone that recognises that the one is made up of three parts (the holy trinity concept is truth). I bear a physical mark from my own personal encounter which reminds me every minute of every day that I do not need to rely on some belief. I know for a fact and I suppose that makes me living proof. I also know prayer works, we just have to be careful to be specific when we ask and we must know that it will be answered in the deepest part of our soul and hearts.

[MaxxTraxx]

Southern Baptist...I go to Hunters Glenn in Plano.

Great discussion so far guys. God is working here...I'm gonna add ya'll to my prayers in the evening.

[AusXJ]

Not into religion more into fact so I am an Atheist. But quite happy to worship the alter of the blessed Jeep................:smiley-whacky084:

[Jamie Lynn]

Not into religion more into fact so I am an Atheist. But quite happy to worship the alter of the blessed Jeep................:smiley-whacky084:

Yes...worship the blessed Jeep...lol.

[bad luck]

Your not the only one I was forced to go to Catholic church as a kid, until they couldn't force me anymore. Now I am atheist. I can't understand the believers but that's o.k. if they don't try to convince me.

[jccatt]

Athiest, i like dinosours and Jeeps

[ArmyGuy45]

Raised Lutheran. Stopped that when I moved out.

[Mudderoy]

Church of Christ, but I find church extremely boring. I go time to time with the wife and girls to a local Baptist church.

[XJ Wheeler]

Baptist, born and raised!

[belvedere]

All religions are systems of activities that are required to make one acceptable to God. The ONLY religion ever instituted by God was Judaism, and He's not doing that, at this time.

Christianity is NOT a religion, but rather, faith in the actions of another (our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ) on our behalf.

I am, therefore, a Bible-believing Christian.

Very well stated!

I am a Christian, also. I attend a CMA church.

[nateyz2000]

All religions are systems of activities that are required to make one acceptable to God. The ONLY religion ever instituted by God was Judaism, and He's not doing that, at this time.

Christianity is NOT a religion, but rather, faith in the actions of another (our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ) on our behalf.

I am, therefore, a Bible-believing Christian.

This is good... It's not about a religion, it is about a relationship... One that I get to have...

[bgreed]

Let's just say he does do things for you. He gave you the ability to go out and earn a living so you could buy food to eat, have a roof over your head a car to drive.

And he does still talk to us it's just a matter of we forget how to listen. He doesn't always speak in an audible voice (though I have had this happen once) sometimes it will be like a picture in your mind, sometimes a scripture. To really hear God you have to be quiet because he speaks with a "still small voice" "Be still and know that I am God"

You asked him to help you solve your problem or get through it. You're still here aren't you? The problem didn't kill you or destroy you "we are pressed but not crushed" God never said it would be easy. As a matter of fact Jesus said it would be down right hard at times.

Most every famous person in the BIble went through difficult times. i.e. Abraham, Daniel, Ezikel, David, Gideon, Jonah. That's why it's called faith. I've been through some very dificult times throughout life and yes there are times that I asked "where are you God?" But each and everytime I came through and in some cases it was like "Oh you were there God how could I have missed it." Remember the verse "Oh ye of little faith"? That is most of us when times get tough.

I know it may sound like I'm bagging on you. That is not the case I want to encourage you to return to your faith and to put your because trust in the father because he does love you and he does have a plan for your life for good and not for evil. He made you special in everyway and when the god of this world is attacking. God gave you authority over him all you have to do is take on that authority and use it. "Resist the devil and he will flee"

Be Blessed

[countreeboy_23]

I was raised baptist. I converted to LDS about 6 years ago. I could never be happier.

[F1Addict]

I am a Born Again Christian (on account of being baptized so at the age of 12). I attended Maranatha Christian Academy from Kindergarten through 8th grade before moving on to a public high school. Maranatha Christian Academy is located on the campus of the original Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, CA.

Despite the religious indoctrination as a child, I've been an atheist for several years. That doesn't mean I love my Christian (or religious, in general) friends any less. Peace.

[Rustbucket]

I was raised catholic but am now an atheist.

[ArmyGuy45]

Raised Lutheran and now practice no religion.

[xj4life2]

I accept your right to make choices as Christ has given this right to us. I however can not understand atheism especially by men who were raised as Christians. So I offer these few verses to you , read them and contemplate on the words, I truly hope they will put and end to your search for the truth , as you will find it back at the start of your journey

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ESV
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 John 1:9 ESV

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.




Matthew 12:30 ESV

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.




Psalm 62:6 ESV

He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken

[XJ Wheeler]

I accept your right to make choices as Christ has given this right to us. I however can not understand atheism especially by men who were raised as Christians. So I offer these few verses to you , read them and contemplate on the words, I truly hope they will put and end to your search for the truth , as you will find it back at the start of your journey

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ESV
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 John 1:9 ESV

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.




Matthew 12:30 ESV

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.




Psalm 62:6 ESV

He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken

:thumbsup:

Sent via messenger pigeon - i talk, he types.

[alex673]

Catholic. My mother is Irish and my father is, believe it or not, a Swiss Protestant (Zwingliist)!

Theology of Huldrych Zwingli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dad is an atheist and Mum isn't, so we were brought up Catholic. My wife converted just before we were married (her choice) and both kids have been brought up in the church as well. If they decide when they are older they want to do something else, that's their choice. But for now, they go to a Catholic primary school attached to our local parish.

[F1Addict]

I accept your right to make choices as Christ has given this right to us. I however can not understand atheism especially by men who were raised as Christians. So I offer these few verses to you , read them and contemplate on the words, I truly hope they will put and end to your search for the truth , as you will find it back at the start of your journey

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ESV
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

2 John 1:9 ESV

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.




Matthew 12:30 ESV

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.




Psalm 62:6 ESV

He only is my rock and my salvation, my fortress; I shall not be shaken

LOL. I've had scripture thrown at me for decades. I've read the Bible, cover to cover, several dozen times. You can't tell me anything I don't already know. However, if you want to talk to me about Jeeps or the space/time continuum or the possible reasons for our existence as a species, a planet, or as a sub-atomic member of this infinite space we call The Universe, I'm all ears... there's still something to be learned there :)

Peace.

[JeepFreak]

I like to think of myself as a Christian Monk in which I am a Christian but I meditate and explore the meaning of life and all the accompanying questions. I believe in dinosaurs and evolution but I still believe that God created evolution as a way of constantly making us better and perfecting us. Think of me as you will but I am the most unorthodox Christian ever...not one of those friggin' bible-thumpers.

[Mudderoy]

I like to think of myself as a Christian Monk in which I am a Christian but I meditate and explore the meaning of life and all the accompanying questions. I believe in dinosaurs and evolution but I still believe that God created evolution as a way of constantly making us better and perfecting us. Think of me as you will but I am the most unorthodox Christian ever...not one of those friggin' bible-thumpers.

I remember in Bible school how they would teach us about people that sat on the fence. Not 100% for God, not 100% against things like evolution. That's fine, but they never swayed me. I think to of the line in the Bible that says God created us in his own image. I believe that means we have to ability to judge right from wrong, to explore, ask questions, love and even create. Being that kind of creature I can help but think I would be limiting myself if I blinded excepted something as fact when evidence suggested otherwise.

The explanation that the DEVIL put the dinosaur bones in the ground to confuses us just doesn't hold water for me. Thankfully no church that I have ever attended try to teach that, otherwise I would have walked out.

[nateyz2000]

Mud, you know the average size of a dinosaur is the same as the animal kingdom today? I don't think the whole bone thing in the ground by the devil. But, I do believe that Noah would have taken a juvenile of all animals, that would soon be in their prime to repopulate the earth... I don't believe he took any full grown mature animals with... That's my opinion.... Because it makes sense if you needed an animal to repopulate their species you wouldn't take one that was mature and old and expect them to get the job done

[Baddmove]

There is no god, just us stuck on this rock we call Earth...

[JeepFreak]

I remember in Bible school how they would teach us about people that sat on the fence. Not 100% for God, not 100% against things like evolution. That's fine, but they never swayed me. I think to of the line in the Bible that says God created us in his own image. I believe that means we have to ability to judge right from wrong, to explore, ask questions, love and even create. Being that kind of creature I can help but think I would be limiting myself if I blinded excepted something as fact when evidence suggested otherwise.

The explanation that the DEVIL put the dinosaur bones in the ground to confuses us just doesn't hold water for me. Thankfully no church that I have ever attended try to teach that, otherwise I would have walked out.

Well if they have to teach you about it, it's like then obviously there are a lot of people who think this way. I mean it says that God created all things living and dead so that means he created dinosaurs. IMO that means that the world would not be what it is today with dinosaurs alive so he destroyed them all in order to shape a new world for us. It's out there but maybe that comet was God's Will. I don't know, I'm obviously not God but these are things I like to explore in my spirituality.

Another random thought I had based off of the Bible itself: what if God was not actually a human being but rather an alien that came down to Earth, kind of like the movie Knowing (the one with Nick Cage)? Every time the Bible 'shows' God, he comes in a flash of light and speaks from nowhere. Maybe this was an alien not wanting to show himself and instead tried to help shape humanity to be better. All alien encounters IRL have shown a flash of light and voices from nowhere. I don't know but this is what I think of in my free time. No I don't watch that crap on the History Channel about God being an alien, this is what I've come up with from the Bible. Most of it can easily be explained if there was an otherworldly species of sentience outside our solar system. Wouldn't be so far fetched in a Universe this big. Food for thought. No hate mail :D

[bad luck]

I recommend a book by Jerry Coyne, called Why evolution is true. Even if you are a staunch theist you will learn a lot from this book.

[4.3LXJ]

Creation and Evolution is a large issue that comes up. I usually refrain from such discussions on the net because it is usually fruitless. But I have an advanced degree in Biology so I would like to make a few comments based on my studies and interactions with leaders in that field.

Evolution as taught in high school and lower division science classes is presented as a cut and dry theory that is a good as fact. It is spoken of as fact in conversations and in text books. BUT ........................... When you get to really digging into it at a graduate level, oh the problems that exist with it. One other thing is that you have to understand about the grand theory is that it is based on unproven theories and assumptions as a foundation. If you pull those out of it, you have no grand theory. Just a bunch of observations. Another thing that you are told, but not in detail is how dating is done. You can use different methods to date rocks and come up with all kinds of values. In fact, under current methods fresh igneous rock (lava) dates at one million years, two if under salt water. One person has mentioned that if you apply a correction factor based on current observations (and acceptable scientific assumptions) you can come up with an earth thousands instead of billions of years old. In reality, what happens is that there is some sort of average agreed on in the past and assigned to fossils. Then the assumption is made that all of the old fossils, like dinosaurs, all died at a certain period in history based on that agreed average. Then the current way to date sedimentary rocks nowadays is to look at fossils and date them that way. So, in effect if you think about this, you have circular reasoning to date fossils. Lots of values to average and assume a date for fossils, then fossils to validate the date of rocks used to date the fossils. Might be something wrong with this kind of reasoning eh?

Another thing you don't hear about unless you dig in the journals is anomalies. These are things that don't fit the grand theory. And attempt to explain ... never. They are filed away to be forgotten and explained some other time. And there are plenty of them. For instance, last week it was announced that there was an intact fossil of a mammal about the size of a rat that had all features of a modern mammal. Fine, but it was dated at 165 million years, along with dinosaurs of that period. What is a problem here is that according to the grand theory, mammals were not supposed to be fully developed then. It is a anomaly, it doesn't fit and everyone is at a loss to explain what that critter was doing there. It throws the whole time line for evolution off and introduces a number of other issues I won't bore you with about rates of speciation etc.

Another issue I have is with scholarship. Those text books you read in high school contain true facts, considered true at the time, that take about two years to get into them. But if proven untrue, they are conveniently left in for an average of 28 years. And there is no one to police this. Bad, bad, bad.

The last issue I will raise here is the origin of life. Somebody about 30 years ago got some amino acids to combine in a beaker charged with electricity. This "proved" life could have spontaneously risen out of the ocean. But, the truth is that a simple thing like that is about as far from self replicating proteins as one end of our galaxy to the other. And every year, the more we find out about biochemistry, the farther it gets. So far now, that part of the theory has been almost scrapped and it is beginning to be left alone after almost every combination of events has been proposed, the latest being under pressure of water in the deepest part of the ocean. As Creationists have always argued, it violates the second law of thermodynamics, and it gets even worse every year. Far enough that some pretty sharp guys are beginning to accept that life came from aliens.

There are other issues about micro and macro evolution, but later in another post.

Last but least, according to the latest analysis of T. rex fossils using MRI scans, the most fearsome predator on the planet was covered with circular feathers. Looked about like Big Bird. :D

[bad luck]

Your right about it being pointless, I don't think anybody will change their mind on this subject. But I'm glad we can still get along.

[4.3LXJ]

So am I. I think the thing that bothers me the most about all that is all the misinformation out there for people to base their beliefs on

[Mudderoy]

Mud, you know the average size of a dinosaur is the same as the animal kingdom today? I don't think the whole bone thing in the ground by the devil. But, I do believe that Noah would have taken a juvenile of all animals, that would soon be in their prime to repopulate the earth... I don't believe he took any full grown mature animals with... That's my opinion.... Because it makes sense if you needed an animal to repopulate their species you wouldn't take one that was mature and old and expect them to get the job done

Problem with the Noah story is the boat wasn't big enough to take two of every animal. Now it could have been done with DNA samples, but that means there was a lot left out of the story. Also the only evidence for a massive flood that has been found so far was very large, but localized to a very small area of the world as a whole.

[Mudderoy]

Creation and Evolution is a large issue that comes up. I usually refrain from such discussions on the net because it is usually fruitless. But I have an advanced degree in Biology so I would like to make a few comments based on my studies and interactions with leaders in that field.

Evolution as taught in high school and lower division science classes is presented as a cut and dry theory that is a good as fact. It is spoken of as fact in conversations and in text books. BUT ........................... When you get to really digging into it at a graduate level, oh the problems that exist with it. One other thing is that you have to understand about the grand theory is that it is based on unproven theories and assumptions as a foundation. If you pull those out of it, you have no grand theory. Just a bunch of observations. Another thing that you are told, but not in detail is how dating is done. You can use different methods to date rocks and come up with all kinds of values. In fact, under current methods fresh igneous rock (lava) dates at one million years, two if under salt water. One person has mentioned that if you apply a correction factor based on current observations (and acceptable scientific assumptions) you can come up with an earth thousands instead of billions of years old. In reality, what happens is that there is some sort of average agreed on in the past and assigned to fossils. Then the assumption is made that all of the old fossils, like dinosaurs, all died at a certain period in history based on that agreed average. Then the current way to date sedimentary rocks nowadays is to look at fossils and date them that way. So, in effect if you think about this, you have circular reasoning to date fossils. Lots of values to average and assume a date for fossils, then fossils to validate the date of rocks used to date the fossils. Might be something wrong with this kind of reasoning eh?

Another thing you don't hear about unless you dig in the journals is anomalies. These are things that don't fit the grand theory. And attempt to explain ... never. They are filed away to be forgotten and explained some other time. And there are plenty of them. For instance, last week it was announced that there was an intact fossil of a mammal about the size of a rat that had all features of a modern mammal. Fine, but it was dated at 165 million years, along with dinosaurs of that period. What is a problem here is that according to the grand theory, mammals were not supposed to be fully developed then. It is a anomaly, it doesn't fit and everyone is at a loss to explain what that critter was doing there. It throws the whole time line for evolution off and introduces a number of other issues I won't bore you with about rates of speciation etc.

Another issue I have is with scholarship. Those text books you read in high school contain true facts, considered true at the time, that take about two years to get into them. But if proven untrue, they are conveniently left in for an average of 28 years. And there is no one to police this. Bad, bad, bad.

The last issue I will raise here is the origin of life. Somebody about 30 years ago got some amino acids to combine in a beaker charged with electricity. This "proved" life could have spontaneously risen out of the ocean. But, the truth is that a simple thing like that is about as far from self replicating proteins as one end of our galaxy to the other. And every year, the more we find out about biochemistry, the farther it gets. So far now, that part of the theory has been almost scrapped and it is beginning to be left alone after almost every combination of events has been proposed, the latest being under pressure of water in the deepest part of the ocean. As Creationists have always argued, it violates the second law of thermodynamics, and it gets even worse every year. Far enough that some pretty sharp guys are beginning to accept that life came from aliens.

There are other issues about micro and macro evolution, but later in another post.

Last but least, according to the latest analysis of T. rex fossils using MRI scans, the most fearsome predator on the planet was covered with circular feathers. Looked about like Big Bird. :D

lol I was watching some scientific show and they said something like a 1 in a million thing happened, then another 1 in a million thing happened {implied sign} then another 1 in a million thing happened, and that's how life began on this planet some 3 billions years ago.... I had to stop it call the wife and kids over. We don't know the whole story, and when we do it will be much more interesting than the current "theories".

[4.3LXJ]

The last I heard, chances of live arising spontaneously was 1 in 10 to the 27 power. And as you know that is as very big number. Like the number of molecules in the know universe. That takes a lot of faith

[abebehrmann]

Well when you think about it, there are 5.5x10^24 molecules in one liter of water, those odds don't sound half bad to me.

[abebehrmann]

Sorry, math was wrong there. Actually 3.3x10^25 molecules in a liter of water.

[JeepFreak]

Sorry, math was wrong there. Actually 3.3x10^25 molecules in a liter of water.

Huh, that's about as big as the tires I want for my XJ when I get it it's 400 inch lift :D

[TeXJ]

I remember in Bible school how they would teach us about people that sat on the fence. Not 100% for God, not 100% against things like evolution. That's fine, but they never swayed me. I think to of the line in the Bible that says God created us in his own image. I believe that means we have to ability to judge right from wrong, to explore, ask questions, love and even create. Being that kind of creature I can help but think I would be limiting myself if I blinded excepted something as fact when evidence suggested otherwise.

The explanation that the DEVIL put the dinosaur bones in the ground to confuses us just doesn't hold water for me. Thankfully no church that I have ever attended try to teach that, otherwise I would have walked out.

lol I havent heard that one, that sound pretty stupid.

[TeXJ]

Creation and Evolution is a large issue that comes up. I usually refrain from such discussions on the net because it is usually fruitless. But I have an advanced degree in Biology so I would like to make a few comments based on my studies and interactions with leaders in that field.

Evolution as taught in high school and lower division science classes is presented as a cut and dry theory that is a good as fact. It is spoken of as fact in conversations and in text books. BUT ........................... When you get to really digging into it at a graduate level, oh the problems that exist with it. One other thing is that you have to understand about the grand theory is that it is based on unproven theories and assumptions as a foundation. If you pull those out of it, you have no grand theory. Just a bunch of observations. Another thing that you are told, but not in detail is how dating is done. You can use different methods to date rocks and come up with all kinds of values. In fact, under current methods fresh igneous rock (lava) dates at one million years, two if under salt water. One person has mentioned that if you apply a correction factor based on current observations (and acceptable scientific assumptions) you can come up with an earth thousands instead of billions of years old. In reality, what happens is that there is some sort of average agreed on in the past and assigned to fossils. Then the assumption is made that all of the old fossils, like dinosaurs, all died at a certain period in history based on that agreed average. Then the current way to date sedimentary rocks nowadays is to look at fossils and date them that way. So, in effect if you think about this, you have circular reasoning to date fossils. Lots of values to average and assume a date for fossils, then fossils to validate the date of rocks used to date the fossils. Might be something wrong with this kind of reasoning eh?

Another thing you don't hear about unless you dig in the journals is anomalies. These are things that don't fit the grand theory. And attempt to explain ... never. They are filed away to be forgotten and explained some other time. And there are plenty of them. For instance, last week it was announced that there was an intact fossil of a mammal about the size of a rat that had all features of a modern mammal. Fine, but it was dated at 165 million years, along with dinosaurs of that period. What is a problem here is that according to the grand theory, mammals were not supposed to be fully developed then. It is a anomaly, it doesn't fit and everyone is at a loss to explain what that critter was doing there. It throws the whole time line for evolution off and introduces a number of other issues I won't bore you with about rates of speciation etc.

Another issue I have is with scholarship. Those text books you read in high school contain true facts, considered true at the time, that take about two years to get into them. But if proven untrue, they are conveniently left in for an average of 28 years. And there is no one to police this. Bad, bad, bad.

The last issue I will raise here is the origin of life. Somebody about 30 years ago got some amino acids to combine in a beaker charged with electricity. This "proved" life could have spontaneously risen out of the ocean. But, the truth is that a simple thing like that is about as far from self replicating proteins as one end of our galaxy to the other. And every year, the more we find out about biochemistry, the farther it gets. So far now, that part of the theory has been almost scrapped and it is beginning to be left alone after almost every combination of events has been proposed, the latest being under pressure of water in the deepest part of the ocean. As Creationists have always argued, it violates the second law of thermodynamics, and it gets even worse every year. Far enough that some pretty sharp guys are beginning to accept that life came from aliens.

There are other issues about micro and macro evolution, but later in another post.

Last but least, according to the latest analysis of T. rex fossils using MRI scans, the most fearsome predator on the planet was covered with circular feathers. Looked about like Big Bird. :D
Yes, I've heard about these anomalies just never could say from where. Science always think they have it right till they are proven wrong. I dont think all science is wrong, I just think they have yet to fully understand their/our environment.

They explain, like Tony was saying, evolution with billions of years, over vasts amounts of time, blah blah blah...

The one question I have is if we saw fit to evolve from apes, then why are there still apes here?

[Mudderoy]

Yes, I've heard about these anomalies just never could say from where. Science always think they have it right till they are proven wrong. I dont think all science is wrong, I just think they have yet to fully understand their/our environment.

They explain, like Tony was saying, evolution with billions of years, over vasts amounts of time, blah blah blah...

The one question I have is if we saw fit to evolve from apes, then why are there still apes here?

That answer is pretty simple. We didn't evolve from apes, but from another line of animals that were similar to apes. They say apes because that's something that people can understand easier. I do believe evolution is real, however I've got a problem with life being an accident, or a self starter. And even if it appears to be after many years of discovery, I think God could be smart enough to flick one molecule in one direction billions of light years away from us that would start a chain of events that gave rise to the universe and us.

[4.3LXJ]

Actually Donnovan's question is a valid one, and remains unanswered in evolutionary terms

[Mudderoy]

Actually Donnovan's question is a valid one, and remains unanswered in evolutionary terms

Many creationists today, sadly, demonstrate their lack of understanding of the evolutionists’ position when they ask this question.

Here is how their misguided thinking goes: “If evolution were true, then modern humans descended from apes. (After all, we’ve seen many scientific charts showing apes as man’s ancestors.) So, since apes still exist, they didn’t turn into humans, and evolutionists are being silly when they say apes evolved into humans. Case closed!” People who think this way (and I have met many, but not within Answers in Genesis ministries) sincerely believe that the present-day existence of apes discredits evolution.

Well then, why don’t we ask the obvious question: If humans evolved from apes, then why do apes still exist today? If they evolved into humans, the apes should naturally be gone . . . right?

Well, no, not really.

This argument shows a misunderstanding of what evolutionists actually believe about human evolution. The evolutionary concept of the origin of humans is not based on humans descending from modern apes but, rather, argues that humans and modern apes share a common ancestor.

According to the evolutionary worldview, several million years ago there existed a group of creatures that would ultimately give rise to both modern apes and modern humans. At some point, a small group of creatures became reproductively isolated from the main group. These two groups then followed different evolutionary pathways, resulting in the modern apes and modern humans. So, in reality, there is nothing about the existence of modern apes that would trouble an evolutionist. In fact, raising this issue only shows a lack of understanding on the part of those believing that the existence of modern apes is a stumbling block for evolution. This argument also seems to imply that creationists are deliberately committing a straw-man fallacy (misrepresentation of an opponent’s position), but in reality, creationists who use this argument simply misunderstand what evolutionists believe.

:link: (http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/09/21/humans-evolved-from-apes)

[abebehrmann]

I don't have a problem with humans evolving from less advanced hominids. That part of evolution makes sense to me. The part of evolution that is the real head-scratcher is when people say that the Jeep Patriot evolved from its Jeep predecessors such as the XJ... Survival of the fittest, my a$$! :)

[McChoka]

I don't have a problem with humans evolving from less advanced hominids. That part of evolution makes sense to me. The part of evolution that is the real head-scratcher is when people say that the Jeep Patriot evolved from it's Jeep predecessors such as the XJ... Survival of the fittest, my a$$! :)

Best thing I'll read all day

[EekGirl96]

So I guess I'll chime in (I usually try to avoid these topics just because I dont see eye-to-eye with everyone else). I happen to be one of those lovely people who doesnt have a religion (yes in my mind, Atheism is a religion), I do not believe in heaven, hell, god, devil, reincarnation, or anything like that...I am completely outside the bubble/box/whatever you want to call it. I was raised Catholic, ended up going to all Christian schools up until High School which may be the reason why I am the way I am religious wise, I didnt make this choice over night, I did my research to find out which religion suits me better and found that, for me, it didnt exist.

Surprisingly when I tell people my views I'll get judged more quickly then I do when Im walking around showing off my tattoos which is why I try to stay in the background when it comes to religious talk. Since I see you guys as my extended family, I dont mind sharing it since we all respect one another :D

[TeXJ]

I believe in that we and everything else was created and that animals can propagate in their own spheres, like many different kinds of canines and such. Does that mean a certain bird species "evolved"? Maybe.

In the grand scheme of things Cherocar > Liberty

[bad luck]

So I guess I'll chime in (I usually try to avoid these topics just because I dont see eye-to-eye with everyone else). I happen to be one of those lovely people who doesnt have a religion (yes in my mind, Atheism is a religion), I do not believe in heaven, hell, god, devil, reincarnation, or anything like that...I am completely outside the bubble/box/whatever you want to call it. I was raised Catholic, ended up going to all Christian schools up until High School which may be the reason why I am the way I am religious wise, I didnt make this choice over night, I did my research to find out which religion suits me better and found that, for me, it didnt exist.

Surprisingly when I tell people my views I'll get judged more quickly then I do when Im walking around showing off my tattoos which is why I try to stay in the background when it comes to religious talk. Since I see you guys as my extended family, I dont mind sharing it since we all respect one another :D

Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color.

[cpttuna]

Religion aside, I had a good day. I hope and I will pray for all my friends at XJ TALK that their day went well also.
God Bless
earl