FAA rule to register drones struck down

[OrangeXJ]

A federal appeals court has struck down FAA's rule requiring drones to be registered because "the FAA does not have the authority to regulate model aircraft" The FAA has not said if they will appeal the decision. Yea lets waste more tax money.

[Charlie Foxtrot]

full disclosure: I am a pilot. In my spare time I co-manage & maintain a public use, privately owned airport. I am a drone enthusiast. I love RC aircraft. So I have bias. I am also a government employee, so I have an understanding of how the typical government bureaucrat works. (Another bias on the table.) I have experience flying around RC & drones. (More bias rears it's ugly head.)

1-Drones are fun, and look like they will be of tremendous value in the commercial world.
2-Chaos in airspace does no one any good. In fact it will do harm.
3-You can't see drones from the cockpit of a small plane traveling 60kts (that's slow, think piper cub) until it's too late to avoid it. Therefore an aircraft that is really moving along (think biz jet -250 to 300kts, airliner - 460kts) can't see one until impact.
4-Very large RC aircraft (think 6+ feet long) can be seen from the cockpit, but it is extremely difficult to recognize that they are RC, and therefore difficult to determine speed & distance, and thus avoid them.
5-An impact with a drone can knock a plane out of the sky (think bird strike), and have fatal consequences.
6-Most airspace is unregulated, and therefore 'uncontrolled'. (No ATC looking out for other aircraft & routing planes accordingly.)

I am not a fan of the FAA, but somebody has to determine the 'rules of the road'. The aviation community in large part has embraced drones. I suggest that with a little training and using common sense, drone operators & general aviation can co-exist. (Be on the look out for many more court cases until this is settled law.)

[OrangeXJ]

"I am not a fan of the FAA, but somebody has to determine the 'rules of the road'. The aviation community in large part has embraced drones. I suggest that with a little training and using common sense, drone operators & general aviation can co-exist. (Be on the look out for many more court cases until this is settled law.)"

I agree with this statement but I think the FAA went overboard with all the hoops one needed to jump through to register one. I own a drone luckily it was it did not meet the requirements to have to register it.

[Charlie Foxtrot]

In regards to the drone regs, I called a professional friend at the local FSDO (Flight Safety District Office), FAA-speak for the place that explains & enforces the regulations, and my friend (who is a drone dude) was as confused as most about the regs. The problem with government bureaucrats is that they feel they need to demand the entire menu in order to get a bite to eat. I know, because I work on the fringe & I see it every day in the agency I work for. It gets out of control very quickly & easily. Every little cog in the wheel feels the need to exert maximum control no matter the consequences. I see it every day. Can't wait to retire. Fly your drone, keep it far away from air traffic, and have fun. BTW I think if you call your drone an 'RC aircraft model' the FAA has no jurisdiction (and stick a label stating that on it). Just use it for pleasure (not commercially - that's another headache).

[Mudderoy]

This is a tough one for me. As a past student pilot and wanna be drone pilot, I understand the fear of free flying unmanned aircraft, but then again I can't help but think it's only going to get worse as technology increases.

The FCC used to be the be all end all in how media was broadcast. With the rise of the Internet you're no long bound by the FCC in your broadcast. True there are other laws but technology found away around regulation.

I think there must be a better want, beside registering a drone doesn't mean I'm going to follow the rules, hell I may want to but don't for one reason or another. Stupidity being one reason.

I'd rather see the general end to flight controllers and put that in the hands of the pilots. Let each aircraft have it's own collision avoidance system. The FAA would maintain the travel corridors, with flight controllers in more of a monitor and contact when there was an issue.

Drones would have to "squawk" just like the rest of the airplanes. The government might have to step in and fund the transponders if they cost as much as the one's that go in aircraft.

I dunno, probably a ton of issues with this idea, just thinking out loud.

[denverd1]

so regulate/require all aircraft to position reporting software/equipment on board? sounds like ADS-B requirement that's coming up in a few years.... no gov't funding, just giving everyone a few years to get it implemented

No controllers??? I don't think that's a good idea just yet. adding drones to the radar screen just creates more traffic. why on earth do people want to fly drones in controlled airspace anyway?

[Mudderoy]

so regulate/require all aircraft to position reporting software/equipment on board? sounds like ADS-B requirement that's coming up in a few years.... no gov't funding, just giving everyone a few years to get it implemented

No controllers??? I don't think that's a good idea just yet. adding drones to the radar screen just creates more traffic. why on earth do people want to fly drones in controlled airspace anyway?

I can see a huge (YUGE!) industry of drones for many things. Delivery, Earthbound traffic monitoring, crops, detective services... lol

[denverd1]

I can see a huge (YUGE!) industry of drones for many things. Delivery, Earthbound traffic monitoring, crops, detective services... lol

sure. why do they need to fly in controlled airspace (where they're likely to interfere with actual aircraft)??

[bluedragon436]

Well crap... the whole big long message I type didn't post.. oh well..

Basically what I posted was that I don't know if I fully agree with the FAA being the one to govern the use of hobbyist UAV/UAS... or even light professional UAV/UAS operations... I know they do govern the larger full size units, which makes sense as they are powered by full size aircraft engines, and fly up at altitude that full size aircraft fly at, if not for some higher... But my issue is, there are so many rules that no one knows what is the rules and when to follow what rules...

I had a cop a few months back (prior to Christmas [imagine that]), try and confiscate my Phantom 3 as I was landing it after a flight around the open field area of the park near my house. There was no one in the park at any portion of the park that I was flying over, and I was no where near any airport or anyone's house... He tried to tell me that he was going to have to confiscate it due to me breaking the law.. I told him, that I had not done anything wrong, and that I was in complete compliance with the law(s).. as my "aircraft" was registered (and is labeled as such) with the FAA, I even carry a copy of the registration card on me, I showed him the FAA rules that showed that I was still within the law, also showed him the Delaware and even broke it down to the local Dover rules, and no where was I in violation of the law.. He said I was not able to fly in the park, and I said that the only law that stated such was the Delaware state law that it is illegal to fly inside of a DE state park (which I was not, I was in a city park, and no where in any of the Dover laws or even the state laws does it say I can't fly in a city park, and I have even checked with the city officials).. but anyways.. he said I see that you brought you UAV in as you saw me approaching you, so you know you were doing something wrong.. I said, nope I was bringing it in, because the battery was dead, and didn't feel like demolishing it while we were talking about how I was supposedly breaking some law(s)... I continued to pack it up in it's case, as he said I'm still going to have to confiscate it, and I told him unless he had a warrant or could show me how I was breaking any law.. he wasn't getting my UAS... I said, I'm not trying to be an ass or anything but I am not in violation, so unless he could probe I was... and he said.. well I have your address.. I'm going to go back to barracks and do some research.. I said, well I live right around the corner, feel free to stop by, and if you want we can have a beer or two and discuss the information from both sides... and that I'm not going anywhere.. I'll be right there waiting... still to this day haven't heard anything more about it...

So like I said, my issue is, there are so many rules from local, all the way up to federal level.. and that doesn't help us hobbyist folks, even those of us, who do our research figure out what is right and what isn't.. other than the obvious of flying it in front of an aircraft, or spying on people..

[OrangeXJ]

Glad you politely shut him down with facts. Luckily he was not a "dick" and arrest you for resisting.

[denverd1]

FAA is policing it because there's no one else to handle it.... yet.

IMO it will take companies (like Amazon using them for delivery, already underway in Europe) paving the way and pushing the FAA back to a happy medium.

[4.3LXJ]

On the other hand, the thought of hundreds or thousands of drones, not to mention the radio waves to control them long distance will mean someone has to regulate this. Otherwise it will get completely out of hand. There is abuse already with people using them to spy into windows etc.

[bluedragon436]

On the other hand, the thought of hundreds or thousands of drones, not to mention the radio waves to control them long distance will mean someone has to regulate this. Otherwise it will get completely out of hand. There is abuse already with people using them to spy into windows etc.

Yeah, now this makes sense to me.. I get that there needs to be someone to police them... and I'm not for sure who would be a better intent.. but I just don't feel that it is the best place for the FAA to be.. Now as far as on the commercial end of things like Amazon or someone like that using them to do deliveries and such.. I think they might should fall under someone like the FAA maybe.. but not the hobbyist... Leave that to fall under the same organizations that govern the standard RC aircraft operations... as that is the same way I look at these.. But I do agree that there has to be rules that allow the local police to still arrest for blatant misuse of the UAV/UAS.. like spying into windows, or even in yards.. or flying close to airports, aircraft or even traffic... because that is just blatant stupidity.. no confusion on who's running what and what rules are what... that is just stupidity and should be handled as such..

[denverd1]

FAA is definitely being used as a "catch all" in this situation. privacy issues are a big problem. will be interesting to see how the airspace above private property will be treated as they things can now invade privacy and technically "trespass" by being there.

there's a youtube vid of a guy legally shooting one down above his

Will big bro use their own drones to monitor the area?

Net guns are already being sold to the sheeple. "protect and defend your property!" blah blah

[drakan1908]

Haha 12 gauge shotgun with 4 or 6 shot makes them wish they had flown somewhere else. Lol

Sent from a van down by the river

[denverd1]

Haha 12 gauge shotgun with 4 or 6 shot makes them wish they had flown somewhere else. Lol

Sent from a van down by the river

exactly what took down the one in the vid.

wow, there's a lot of drone shooting going on! 28 vids came up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEpWBE5GdiM

[bluedragon436]

I don't have a problem with shooting them down... my only issue is, people shooting them down for the fun of it... not because they're legitimately encroaching on privacy or even trespassing.. That is the reason why I don't fly mine at my house... because I live too close to folks that I don't want any of them thinking I'm trying to spy on them or anything like that... don't think any of my neighbors would shoot at it.. but either way.. not even worth the chance..

[Charlie Foxtrot]

At home on the airplane patch we have hosted a lot of RC events so when the drones appeared on the scene nobody was too freaked out. It also helped that the first few drone enthusiasts were fellow pilots who waited until everybody was on the ground. Then they encouraged anybody nearby to join in the fun. Be aware tho, in some rural areas, bad guys use drones to case farms and isolated businesses prior to robberies & break ins. Police, Troopers & Deputies tend to get a little on edge when they spot an outsider with a drone just goofing around. Be open with them but be careful when they are checking you out. If you are looking for a safe place to practice, check out the local AOPA &/or EAA group. Both sponsor drone fly-ins at the airports they use. Both are pilot organizations that are drone friendly.

[bluedragon436]

At home on the airplane patch we have hosted a lot of RC events so when the drones appeared on the scene nobody was too freaked out. It also helped that the first few drone enthusiasts were fellow pilots who waited until everybody was on the ground. Then they encouraged anybody nearby to join in the fun. Be aware tho, in some rural areas, bad guys use drones to case farms and isolated businesses prior to robberies & break ins. Police, Troopers & Deputies tend to get a little on edge when they spot an outsider with a drone just goofing around. Be open with them but be careful when they are checking you out. If you are looking for a safe place to practice, check out the local AOPA &/or EAA group. Both sponsor drone fly-ins at the airports they use. Both are pilot organizations that are drone friendly.

Yeah I had thought about this as well.. But unfortunately since both of the drones I have are DJI Phantoms they are programed in the firmware to not allow me to operate my drone near any registered airport... including the airport my state's EAA group does events/fly-ins at... That is kind of why I like flying at the park that I fly at, is because it is close to home, but also so long as no one is there in the park... I'm still within the limits of the law(s)... and don't have to worry about pissing anyone off (other than the police apparently)... About the only other places to fly in DE is somewhere too close to an airport (which I wouldn't do as it's illegal, unsafe.. and my DJI won't let me.. lol)... @ the beach.. where you have to worry bout fighting the killer winds... and very very particular home owners along the beach (understandably so)... or on some random farm.. which like you mentioned... pretty frowned upon... Have thought about going and talking to a few of the local farmers and see if I might be able to talk them into letting me fly around a small section of their property, even more so if it's one of the farms that backs up against tree lines or even the random waterways that are everywhere.. where farmers might want to check or see the amount of deer that are on their property (as most of them allow hunting on their land during season, given the population allows...).. so maybe I can talk them into letting me fly parts of their property, to get more comfortable with the quad but also to let me "survey" or what have you parts of their property... I know some of them have issues with trespassers coming off of the waterways to either duck hunt, or even deer hunt.. have seen that in the news or the papers over the time I've lived here.. figure can't hurt to try and see what one or two might say about it...

[Charlie Foxtrot]

Here's a couple links to AOPA drone stuff, the first outlines how the group has opened it's ranks to include drones, and explains what it offers drone pilots:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/february/21/aopa-welcomes-drone-pilots

The second outlines access to a free newsletter about all things drone:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/publications/drone-pilot-archive

As an example of EAA sponsored events that are drone inclusive (this show is coming up this week):
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/event/Virginia_Regional_Festival_of_Flight?id=29CF4BFBFC 9F4687B96052A663598819

Don't forget RC aircraft clubs (they tend to have their own airstrips):
http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/delaware-rc-airplane-clubs.html

Good luck!

Happy Memorial Day, and if you have any friends who have been down range, give 'em a big "Thanks"!

[denverd1]

Charlie, what are your thoughts on privatizing ATC?

[Charlie Foxtrot]

I figure Mr Trump is opening negotiations.

When Reagan fired the PATCO folks, several of my friends were working at Aurora Center, and of course the Dumb A$$es thought Reagan was bluffing. He wasn't. They lost their jobs. One of the strikers bought one of the bars where they hung out (Little Red Schoolhouse in North Aurora). The rest moved on to other jobs. My young associate/apprentice's father was an ATC that didn't strike. He went on to retire. He blew his brains out with in a few weeks of retirement. The only striker that retired rich was the bar owner. Later another friend of mine opened a series of pubs that seemed to attract the new crowd from Aurora. Watched a lot of those folks spend their off time sitting in front of a different type of screen with a drink in hand. First it was pac man, then video poker. Most of those folks ended up broke &/or in rehab. My pub owner friend sold off his holdings, I moved on & haven't seen any of the ATC crowd in about ten years. It's a high paying career, that attracts a special sort, absolutely stresses them to the max, and like all federal jobs, hangs them out to dry if something goes wrong. They have absolutely no leadership or support. The FAA is run by PC droids who are just paper shufflers, punching their tickets, and are more interested in filling some amorphous milestone than actually doing good. It is not even a job requirement for management to have an aviation background. You get folks bossing/managing aviation folks (ATCs & pilots alike) that don't even understand how a plane flies. But they fill some quota, they are a check mark in some central planning HR droid's personnel chart. They transfer in from some other agency to get a bump up the GS scale. They know how to work OPM & fill out forms. Its no wonder that the FAA has labor issues with ATC's. Privatizing may have no effect, positive or negative. I just don't know.

[4.3LXJ]

Sounds like the same kind of :bsflag: that is in every government agency somewhere. Been there and done that too

[Charlie Foxtrot]

-just another little anecdotal FAA tid bit:

Last fatal aircraft accident in which I was involved, the on scene FAA investigator had never flown a plane, didn't know how a plane worked and didn't even understand the very basic concepts of engineering, or weather, yet this was the "fully qualified" "subject matter expert" that was sent to investigate the crash. Upon later inquiry I was told this is the new normal in federal service.

[4.3LXJ]

That is what happens when the union makes the rules

[bluedragon436]

-just another little anecdotal FAA tid bit:

Last fatal aircraft accident in which I was involved, the on scene FAA investigator had never flown a plane, didn't know how a plane worked and didn't even understand the very basic concepts of engineering, or weather, yet this was the "fully qualified" "subject matter expert" that was sent to investigate the crash. Upon later inquiry I was told this is the new normal in federal service.

Yeah, that is complete BS, right there... And not at all the way to have a good accountability and good investigation done.. And probably another reason why accident investigations take a year or more to release reports... I have tried looking into doing crash investigation with either the FAA or the NTSB.. and they're like you have to have a degree for crash investigation... I was like I'm sure not everyone that does it has that, I know the folks I talked with when I did the crash recovery courses who were either FAA or NTSB folks... they didn't have degrees.. and as you said, didn't even have a clue about aircraft..


That is what happens when the union makes the rules

Yep, pretty much... and unfortunately that is not a good thing.. AT ALL!!

[4.3LXJ]

I agree, and I am very anti union because of stuff like that. And I might add that I don't remember all the circumstances around the ATC strike, but generally the union is behind a strike and doesn't care what the consequences to the individual workers are

[bluedragon436]

AGREED I've not had to deal with union work, as far as working with or more rather for one.. But was stuck with co-"workers" that were union... and it was horrible.. because most of them had amazing knowledge.. but they didn't work worth a crap... and wasn't anything we could do about it... other than make a complaint to the union rep, and see where that goes (no where other than the trash can/shredder)... unfortunately we the actual workers were stuck hurting for the lack of workers due to it..and God forbid you are a complaint while @ work and one of them heard it..

[Charlie Foxtrot]

Nice story about a problematic drone flight:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/09/drone_hits_wire_kills_silicon_valley_power/
Be on the lookout for some unpleasant public reactions.

[drakan1908]

AGREED I've not had to deal with union work, as far as working with or more rather for one.. But was stuck with co-"workers" that were union... and it was horrible.. because most of them had amazing knowledge.. but they didn't work worth a crap... and wasn't anything we could do about it... other than make a complaint to the union rep, and see where that goes (no where other than the trash can/shredder)... unfortunately we the actual workers were stuck hurting for the lack of workers due to it..and God forbid you are a complaint while @ work and one of them heard it..
I joined the teamsters when UPS bought Overnite. The only reason I did was to make sure the SOBs didn't try to rip me off and not give me my health care when I retire later this month. But under no circumstances do I back them in any way. I have always said that the union is for people who don't want to do anything, and we have a lot of them. If you do your job and do it right you don't need a union. Let your work speak for itself.

Sent from a van down by the river

[denverd1]

absolutely floors me that crash investigators aren't required to know the first thing about flight. ATC mgmt I can make an exception for, shouldn't be that way, but how on earth does a crash investigator not know EVERYTHING about a plane, including how it flys? seems like a key component in understanding how/why the ground got in the way.

would like to think that taking ATC out of govt control would be good thing. But have seen horrendous results with private companies taking over actual work for TxDOT. One stretch of new interstate in Tyler has been repaved 3 times in the last 2 years because someone couldn't read a topo map. Quite a few fatalities on that stretch of road as well.

And we're not talking about paving roads here. Hope they get this right without adding a bunch of fees to GA.

[bluedragon436]

On this FAA control of the drones.. or rather rules for the drones... One of the big things is fling anywhere near an airport, or even near airport flight paths... I was randomly surfing the inter webs, about a local small airport.. and on their site they mentioned that they are part of a program being created that would allow drone operators to alert local airports easier of their flight operations... I was like, well if they would make that easy, then that would be nice.. I guess it will also allow you to look on a map and see where you're planning on flying, and it will show if you'll be in any air corridors or anything like that... so that way you can see if there are any reasons why you might not be able to fly before you get to that location, and either can't fly (if you have something like my restricted DJI Phantom), or before you fly somewhere the they don't want you to fly... The deal is by AirMap, and is called Digital Notice and Awareness System (D-NAS), says it'll allow drone operators to provide airports with real-time digital information about the location of their flights..

[OrangeXJ]

Watching the local news yesterday one of the local stations has a drone that has a camera on it that will show live shots on the tv like the news helicopters do. I guess they can get a permit to do that from some agency.

[bluedragon436]

Watching the local news yesterday one of the local stations has a drone that has a camera on it that will show live shots on the tv like the news helicopters do. I guess they can get a permit to do that from some agency.

Yeah I'm sure they have a much nicer drone than I have, but I know if I want I can stream mine to either my phone, or tablet.. and either do a live stream from that connection, or record it.. I'm sure theirs is a far nice drone, and has a way better connection and quality video... I would imagine they'd have to get approval from some agency to do so, as it is a commercial flight/use.. not to mention having actual licensed pilot for the UAS..

[Charlie Foxtrot]

About a year or so ago we had a guy with a drone set up that he used at golf courses/country clubs. His business was set up around the drone flying over the course, hole by hole, videoing the hole from the tee thru the approach up to the pin. The business plan to monetize the video was to offer at the tee an overhead view of the shot, and play thru to the green. I saw some of his sample vids, and they were spectacular. He had not finished the set up and was looking for a pilot for staff, and courses that would offer his services. Don't know if he was successful, but the vids sold themselves, and the equipment wasn't that expensive. He said the whole kit was a prototype for tv stations and he had less than $3500 in it.