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slvmart
06-11-2014, 05:37 AM
I placed an order with this "business" back on Feb. 10th, 2014. At the time I was told delivery would be 6+ weeks. I've been in touch with Chris numerous times asking for a status update. Often he doesn't respond. Since I was at 14 weeks of waiting, I decided to take some action. Over the weeks, I have filed a complaints with Paypal, the BBB, and with the North Carolina Secretary of State. So about a week and a half ago Chris finally got back to me and said he would ship the bumper at the end of the week and he would notify me with the tracking number. This was after filing the complaint with the N.C. SOS. Since then, once again I have heard nothing. It is 16 weeks, almost 4 months, later. I have also offered that I would recall my N.C. SOS complaint if I either received the bumper in good condition, or if I received a refund. Chris says he can not give me a refund, he does not have the money.
So be forewarned, this is not a professional business and does not live up to its commitments. :mad:

abebehrmann
06-11-2014, 08:46 AM
That sucks man! I hope you get your bumper soon or your money back.

Mudderoy
06-11-2014, 09:22 AM
I have invited L&L Fabrication to respond.

bluedragon436
06-12-2014, 11:49 AM
I'm sorry to hear that Steve.... I had looked @ picking up an L&L Fab bumper for my XJ a little while back.. Thank you for sharing your experience to hopefully warn others before they experience similar experience... I hope that this can be resolved, but as I've learned over the years.. it might be a long and argues journey!!

slvmart
06-13-2014, 05:58 AM
Unfortunately, the lesson to learn from this appears to be not to deal with start up businesses. However, that is really unfair to other start ups that intend on providing quality service to customers and limits their (that new start ups) chance of success.
I have been blocked from posting on the L&L Facebook page, as I assume, they do not want others to know how they do business. It's sort of useless to have a rating on Facebook that can be manipulated by the business, for their own advantage.
SO YES ! Buyer beware.

I would be surprised if Chris bothers to respond to the "invite" to comment on the situation. But let him prove me wrong.

slvmart
06-13-2014, 07:23 AM
Just FYI. I just filed a claim with the bank for the disputed amount, and called Paypal who claim they can do nothing.
An additional note, on the Facebook page for L&L Fab, their were others who complained about not receiving product, or long wait times. I guess I know next time to check out all resources before placing orders with other unknown businesses.
In the long run, I could have paid 2x the amount for a bumper and been ahead.
I've never been a big fan of Paypal, as I might as well just pay directly instead of going through some middle man. The middle man doesn't really have much of an interest in doing anything about disputes, they already got their cut. They have a 45 day time frame on filing complains and disputes. Not real useful when the given delivery date is 6+ weeks.

prcjeep
06-13-2014, 09:51 AM
Is their facebook page down? i cant seem to find it

slvmart
06-13-2014, 04:14 PM
I finally got a response from Chris this morning, after telling him that I had filed a claim with the bank and with Paypal. Somehow it always takes me telling him something he doesn't want to hear for him to respond. Anyway he still claims he intends on shipping the bumper. I gave up on getting a commitment date, since they obviously don't mean anything.

To make a long story short, Chris says he has taken the Facebook site down, saying that he has stopped orders. Not sure if he is talking new ones or what. :bang:

slvmart
06-18-2014, 04:49 AM
I was just notified by Paypal, and by Chris at L&L Fab, that he has issued me a refund. And I have verified that I did receive the money in my account. :bacondance:

I also contacted the North Carolina Attorney Generals office of the refund.

Any suggestions on what bumper to buy ? I need something that has access to my front mounted hitch receiver, as I have a smaller hitch mounted plow that I use in winter. So the bumper can't be too tall (so it won't interfere with the hitch) and can't stick out real far. I can quantify the stick out not too far part with an actual measurement.

bluedragon436
06-18-2014, 06:35 AM
Glad they finally took responsibility and issued the refund they should have done a while back..

Are you looking for a winch type bumper, or just an aftermarket bumper w/ D-ring loops??

slvmart
06-18-2014, 06:49 AM
I was going to get a winch bumper, not that I intend on having a winch installed on a full time basis. But I have a winch on my car trailer that I use for pulling cars onto the trailer.

Actually, even D rings are optional, as I do have a shackle that I can attach to my front mounted, and rear mounted, receiver. I was thinking of the Rough Country 1057. http://www.roughcountry.com/jeep-xj-winch-bumper-1057.html
This bumper is reasonably priced and appears to be pretty beefy.

bluedragon436
06-18-2014, 07:12 AM
Yeah that RC bumper is a pretty decent unit, I looked at picking that one up with the D-rings and the "stinger" add ons for my 98... I've seen a few of them in person and they are pretty decent looking units..

4.3LXJ
06-18-2014, 09:15 AM
Looks like it should do the job and is a decent price

Mudderoy
06-18-2014, 12:05 PM
I was just notified by Paypal, and by Chris at L&L Fab, that he has issued me a refund. And I have verified that I did receive the money in my account. :bacondance:

I also contacted the North Carolina Attorney Generals office of the refund.

Any suggestions on what bumper to buy ? I need something that has access to my front mounted hitch receiver, as I have a smaller hitch mounted plow that I use in winter. So the bumper can't be too tall (so it won't interfere with the hitch) and can't stick out real far. I can quantify the stick out not too far part with an actual measurement.

Front bumper? I really like the JCR Offroad bumpers. The one we have on my wife's TJ is very nice.

slvmart
06-18-2014, 02:23 PM
JCR looks like a nice bumper, also. Only thing I noticed is that it appears to taper lower from the front to the back. So my concern would be if it would interfere with the hitch. I'll shoot them a email.

Brasscatz
06-18-2014, 03:32 PM
Shoot a pm to Virginia Fabrication on here. If you don't like the ones he already makes, I'm sure he could do a custom job for ya

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4 because my microwave couldn't do it

finneys98xj
06-18-2014, 06:02 PM
Love my Va fab bumper

Rocco83
06-18-2014, 06:41 PM
Couldn't be happier with my VA Fab front bumper.

Mudderoy
06-18-2014, 06:46 PM
JCR looks like a nice bumper, also. Only thing I noticed is that it appears to taper lower from the front to the back. So my concern would be if it would interfere with the hitch. I'll shoot them a email.

JCR Offroad has some nice rear bumpers, but I'd have a look at DETOURSUSA.com first. I have one of Mark's rear bumpers with tire carrier. DETOURS is an advertiser on :xjtalk:

I was lucky enough to talk Mark into building a custom front bumper for me otherwise, the JCR's were near the top of my list. :D

abebehrmann
06-18-2014, 09:19 PM
Make that three recommendations for Virginia Fabrication. Love my virginia fab stubby recovery bumper. Only have good things to say about his customer service too, he always answered emails within a day and usually ships out within a couple weeks. Can't beat his prices either.

slvmart
06-19-2014, 06:59 PM
Just as an update. I decided to go with a bumper from JCR. Part of the reason is that they are located about a hour drive from where I live.

Mudderoy
06-21-2014, 10:26 AM
Just as an update. I decided to go with a bumper from JCR. Part of the reason is that they are located about a hour drive from where I live.

That's cool. We've interviewed Brian, of JCR Offroad, on the XJ TALK SHOW! in the past. Be sure and tell them your from :xjtalk: but do it AFTER you pay just in case they want to charge you more. :rolleye0012:

http://www.xjtalkshow.com/index.php/2014/02/rb-004-2012-interview-with-brian-meyers-of-jcr-offroad/

http://traffic.libsyn.com/tonymuckleroy/RB.004-Brian-Meyers-JCROffroad-112812.mp3

slvmart
06-21-2014, 10:39 AM
Cute !

Damn, I should have known what that tax was for !

bluedragon436
06-22-2014, 08:43 AM
Just as an update. I decided to go with a bumper from JCR. Part of the reason is that they are located about a hour drive from where I live.

If they are only that far away, I'd talk to them about driving up to pick it up and mount it up... That way if you need something clearanced for the plow mounts they can do it right there for you...

slvmart
06-22-2014, 10:53 AM
I can call them. Didn't think they would mount it up for me. But if they are willing to do that, that would be great. Especially, if there is no charge associated with that service.

flux0r
06-24-2014, 09:28 AM
Another guy here with the exact same issue as Slvmart.
Actually, Slvmart, you and me may have been fighting for Chris' response since i ordered on Feb 5th. it actually pisses me off that you managed to get a refund - i mean, good on you, but **** man.

All emails (that he does respond to) push how honest and truthful he is, give no commitments on time, and he won't give a refund at all - saying its tied up in material -Essentially saying tough shit.

I had to threaten with contacting a lawyer to get a fedex number. That was 4 days ago(18th). Guess i'll have to contact a lawyer now to get my money back or a bumper. Honestly though, i dont think i want the bumper anymore. i saw another thread about very poor fitment, and quality.

Do you have a Contact number for the NC SOS?

slvmart
06-24-2014, 05:24 PM
1) I would suggest that you file with the BBB :
http://www.bbb.org/northwestern-north-carolina/
email : [email protected]
Although the BBB did send me a email today that they tried 2x to contact L&L and received no reply, so they closed the complaint. But they do record the complaint against the business.
2) File with the N.C. DOJ (Attorney General) :
http://ncdoj.com/Consumer/2-2-12-File-a-Complaint.aspx
I could not find a email, but the phone number is : (919) 716-6400
3) Although Paypal says they do not accept complaints after 45 days, which as I noted, are useless. I was able to call them and they did take the complaint but did a CYA. But I would attempt to do so, anyway. (Have I mentioned that I hate using Paypal ? I find them pretty useless and have had a card compromised by them in the past.) :mad:
4) Also make sure to file a complaint with whatever bank card you paid with.

I get the feeling that Chris is short on money, but that is not the Customers problem. He has a responsibility to be up front about his issues and respond to them. Personally, I hit him with whatever I could and he came back with these are not good times for him. I just explained to him that he came across as not having integrity and shutting down (as far as not communicating) without living up to his commitments.

I expressed to him that I have no desire to see him hurt. But I am also not going to sit idly by and be ignored and have my money taken. He only has himself to blame for that. :mel:

slvmart
06-28-2014, 11:38 AM
If they are only that far away, I'd talk to them about driving up to pick it up and mount it up... That way if you need something clearanced for the plow mounts they can do it right there for you...

I emailed them and they came back that at one time they were thinking of offering the mounting service, apparently for a fee. But it seems as if they have decided against it. Also, since the JCR bumpers are unpainted, you would have to remove it in order to paint it anyway.

bluedragon436
07-04-2014, 09:32 AM
I emailed them and they came back that at one time they were thinking of offering the mounting service, apparently for a fee. But it seems as if they have decided against it. Also, since the JCR bumpers are unpainted, you would have to remove it in order to paint it anyway.

Yeah I know they had talked about it, but thought they had decided to do it.. I knew it'd have to come off for paint, but figured if they could mount it just in case it needed to be clearanced any for the plow mounts, figured you want that done before you painted it and had to pull it again have it clearanced and repainted in those spots..

flux0r
07-04-2014, 09:41 AM
Well, I got my bumper.

Not what I envisioned it to be. 3/16ths is a thin metal. And the tubes he supplied for the pre-runner style bumper are HREW... And very thin... Seriously just for looks. The welds are good, though. It appears to be well made, just cheaply made. Guess at 300 bucks... You get what you pay for.

I have sheet of 1/4 inch, I'm going to plate and gusset the important areas, and buy a few feet of DOM for the prerunner tubes.

Mudderoy
07-04-2014, 10:28 AM
Well, I got my bumper.

Not what I envisioned it to be. 3/16ths is a thin metal. And the tubes he supplied for the pre-runner style bumper are HREW... And very thin... Seriously just for looks. The welds are good, though. It appears to be well made, just cheaply made. Guess at 300 bucks... You get what you pay for.

I have sheet of 1/4 inch, I'm going to plate and gusset the important areas, and buy a few feet of DOM for the prerunner tubes.

You're saying that L&L sent you the bumper?

flux0r
07-04-2014, 10:31 AM
Amazingly, yes. After 6 months.

DirtBound Offroad
07-04-2014, 10:42 AM
3/16" steel plate for bumpers is pretty much industry standard you have to remember what you are bolting it to... two or three layers of 16-18G steel.

The same goes for HREW vs DOM, unless they are using anything thinner than .120 I don't see the use of HREW an issue.

flux0r
07-04-2014, 12:38 PM
I'm fully plated in 1/4.

Perhaps it is the industry standard... Just looks thin to me - especially that hrew pipe.

Also, just because it's industry standard doesn't mean it lives up to my standards. 3/16 as a winch plate looks like its going to rip right off.

slvmart
07-04-2014, 12:42 PM
flux0r ... at least you got the bumper, for what it's worth. Hopefully, $325. Maybe, you got the one that I was supposed to be coming my way. But it sounds like you ordered before I did. Maybe I was a bigger pest.

flux0r
07-04-2014, 12:48 PM
flux0r ... at least you got the bumper, for what it's worth. Hopefully, $325. Maybe, you got the one that I was supposed to be coming my way. But it sounds like you ordered before I did. Maybe I was a bigger pest.

I don't know man. I was professional the whole time, gave him many many chances to be truthful, ultimatums... send me a bumper in flatpack, all sorts of shit. until the last email when i told him that i didn't have something by X date, he could expect some communication from a lawyer and made comment that i'd gladly spend triple(and more) what his bumper cost's to make his life painful.

Am i an asshole? yeah, a little. In life, you live up to your commitments, or you GTFO.

slvmart
07-05-2014, 12:13 AM
Pretty much did the same and told him the same. I know there is at least one more person out there that had contacted me about having the same issue. Hope it all works out for him, as well.